Canadian Railroads > 22,000 tons, 153 cars

CN B730 with 153 loaded potash cars (totaling 22,000 tons) bound for Saint John, New Brunswick is seen leaving Turcot West in Montreal yesterday evening just after getting a new crew. Power is CN 2933, CN 2891 at the head end, with CN 3021 at the tail end

1-Just a few seconds after the train starts to pull. Part of the removed tunnel that Ray and KG have posted about recently is visible at left. What remains of the tunnel is out of sight at right.

2-Ducking under highway 20.

3-CN 3021 bringing up the rear.

Michael Berry

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Can three units walk 22,000 tons up the grades from St. Andre Jct to Pelletier and from Longley to Summit? Would love to see (and hear) that.

Best regards,

Rob L.

rob_l Wrote:
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> Can three units walk 22,000 tons up the grades
> from St. Andre Jct to Pelletier and from Longley
> to Summit? Would love to see (and hear) that.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob L.

No, the standard procedure has been to remove about 35 cars and add a fourth unit at Joffre.

Mberry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rob_l Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can three units walk 22,000 tons up the grades
> > from St. Andre Jct to Pelletier and from
> Longley
> > to Summit? Would love to see (and hear) that.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rob L.
>
> No, the standard procedure has been to remove
> about 35 cars and add a fourth unit at Joffre.

Thanks, Michael.

So OK, four units on [(153 - 35)/153 ]* 22,000 = about 17,000 tons, walking the train up the grade from St. Andre Jct. to Pelletier. Do they make it in one piece? Must be the most impressive mountain railroading show in eastern Canada.

I recall that back in the late 80s, wintertime unit grain trains with four units would double the hill from St. Andre to Pelletier.

Best regards,

Rob L.

rob_l Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mberry Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > rob_l Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Can three units walk 22,000 tons up the
> grades
> > > from St. Andre Jct to Pelletier and from
> > Longley
> > > to Summit? Would love to see (and
> hear) that.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Rob L.
> >
> > No, the standard procedure has been to remove
> > about 35 cars and add a fourth unit at Joffre.
>
> Thanks, Michael.
>
> So OK, four units on [(153 - 35)/153 ]* 22,000 =
> about 17,000 tons, walking the train up the grade
> from St. Andre Jct. to Pelletier. Do they make it
> in one piece? Must be the most impressive mountain
> railroading show in eastern Canada.
>
> I recall that back in the late 80s, wintertime
> unit grain trains with four units would double the
> hill from St. Andre to Pelletier.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob L.

I haven't seen any reports of them having trouble. The fact that they are using AC units is certainly a big help.

Michael Berry

120 fully loaded 286K cars, along with 4 ET44AC locomtives at 208 tons each, works out to just under 18,000 total tons for the weight of the train.

​The maximum grade on the Pelletier is 1%, so they would need 360,000 lbs. of tractive effort (not allowing anything extra for rolling resistance and curves) to move the whole thing up the hill.

​Each AC GE is rated for 166,000 lbs. of tractive effort, so four of them should give a comfortable margin for moving the train, particularly if two of them are pushing on the back.  In theory, 3 would be enough, but the HPT would be pretty low, so the speed would suffer.  The old SD40s or MLWs only had a TE rating of 85,000 lbs. or less, so four couldn't move a similar train up that grade.

​GTD

cn6218 Wrote:
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> 120 fully loaded 286K cars, along with 4 ET44AC
> locomtives at 208 tons each, works out to just
> under 18,000 total tons for the weight of the
> train.
>

In my day, tonnage ratings never included the weight of the locomotives.

Best regards,

Rob L.

Did these potash trains operate from Saskatchewan to Saint John before the Picadilly NB mine operations were suspended?

JPB Wrote:
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> Did these potash trains operate from Saskatchewan
> to Saint John before the Picadilly NB mine
> operations were suspended?

​Only rarely.  The New Brunswick mines, including the one at Clover Hill on the Denison Sub, were able to supply most of the potash shipped out of Saint John.  Now that they have all closed, they still need to fulfill those contracts, and they do it by bringing product in by rail to load on the ships.  It used to be quite a big deal when there was going to be a unit potash train operating over the NTR and the whole length of the Sussex Sub.

GTD

rob_l Wrote:
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>
> In my day, tonnage ratings never included the
> weight of the locomotives.
>

​That might still be the case.  My figurings aren't really "tonnage ratings" so much as calculations to figure what a locomotive can haul on that profile.  Since the locomotive has to haul itself, I included its weight in the calculation.

​The most recent timetable I have is a bit dated (1996), but it does give a rating between St. Andre and Pelletier of 3640 tons for the big DC units of the day (SD75Is, C44-9W).  SD40s and -2s were good for 3310 each, while the 6-motor MLWs were only 2860 on that particular stretch of track.  ASSuming that TE is proportional to the tonnage rating, that would mean an ET44AC would be rated at about 5980 tons, so it would take at least three of them to move a 17,000 ton train (NOT including the power) up that grade.  Four would give a bit of headroom in case of slippery rails or other problems, but they shouldn't need to double any hills.

GTD

Now imagine had CN bought heavy high adhesion units that were capable of providing up to 200,000lbs of tractive effort but mostly around 170-180K. Now four units on the orignal train without the 35 car reduction would be possible now I think 

Mberry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rob_l Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can three units walk 22,000 tons up the grades
> > from St. Andre Jct to Pelletier and from
> Longley
> > to Summit? Would love to see (and hear) that.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rob L.
>
> No, the standard procedure has been to remove
> about 35 cars and add a fourth unit at Joffre.

Does this mean they cut in a DP fourth unit about 35 cars from the rear?  Or are they using 4 units to take 118 cars (in this instance) up the grade?  If the latter is the case how do they handle the 35 cars left behind?

TIA,

Dave T.

18 000 tons limitation for the St.Eleuthere (rivière Boucanée) trestle is the main reason why they have to roughly cut 4000 tons at Joffre.

In counterpart, using the old Intercolonial route via Mont Joli would not need such a restriction. If it wasn't about adding the extra 4000 tons to an already almost regular extra 474, CN might have considered the Mont Joli route for potash units.

ST



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/16 21:06 by TiBudd.

canrailfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mberry Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > rob_l Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Can three units walk 22,000 tons up the
> grades
> > > from St. Andre Jct to Pelletier and from
> > Longley
> > > to Summit? Would love to see (and
> hear) that.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Rob L.
> >
> > No, the standard procedure has been to remove
> > about 35 cars and add a fourth unit at Joffre.
>
> Does this mean they cut in a DP fourth unit about
> 35 cars from the rear?  Or are they using 4 units
> to take 118 cars (in this instance) up the
> grade?  If the latter is the case how do they
> handle the 35 cars left behind?
>
> TIA,
>
> Dave T.

They've been mostly running them out of Joffre with 2 head end and 2 tail end units. The overflow cars on on a manifest train, I believe CN 474.

TiBudd Wrote:
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> 18 000 tons limitation for the St.Eleuthere
> (rivière Boucanée) trestle is the main reason
> why they have to roughly cut 4000 tons at Joffre.
>

Interesting!

4 units should make about 10-12mph up the 1 percent. 3 will go about 8-9mph. Based on my 17k trains up our 1 percent.