Canadian Railroads > Rocky Mountaineer- the beginnings-1988

 The concept of an all daylight sightseeing train through the Canadian Rockies rose out of an often heard passenger complaint on both CP and CN and later Via trains.  "Most of the spectacular scenery is travelled through at night".  Very true. In order to serve both Vancouver and the cities east of the Rockies at a time when passengers will want to board, part of the journey of the CP "Canadian" and the CN "Super Continental' through the mountains had to take place at night.

Via came up with the concept of running a daytime train purely for sightseeing purposes between Vancouver BC and Calgary AB, and later Jasper AB.and an enthusiastic team of west coast train and facility operations people were set up in Vancouver in 1988.

From the outset, the "Canadian Rockies by Daylight" was serviced at Kamloops BC, roughly the mid-point of the journey, and guests stayed at Kamloops hotels overnight.

The fare was reasonable, and included overnight accommodation and transfers from the train to hotels. In Kamloops, chartered school buses were used.

The concept was successful, however after the second season, the train was slated for discontinuance under the massive cuts to the Via network by the Mulroney Government of 1990.  Among the many things said at the time of the announcement of service cuts was an offer to sell the rights to operate a Via train service to anyone who could present a reasonable operating plan.

Peter Armstrong, the owner of the Grey Line sightseeing franchise in Vancouver, and former hotelier proposed and was accepted to operate the "Rocky Mountaineer" train operation. Twenty six years later, the operation is prospering as a high end tourist venue.

The images show an eastbound train being serviced in the small yard beside Lorne Street station in Kamloops, and a westbound train passing an AAR Officers special train at Ross Peak in Rogers Pass on the CP.

That second photo looks like the Director's Special may have been something to do with an early inspection of the new tunnel.

Rick

rschonfelder Wrote:
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> That second photo looks like the Director's
> Special may have been something to do with an
> early inspection of the new tunnel.
>
> Rick

Precisely, the train was parked at Ross Peak while the AAR officers toured the tunnel and fan house by bus.

I've only seen VIA's Rockies by Daylight train used with the old Blue and Yellow ex-CN cars. These were then sold [given] to the Armstrong folks who restored them into Red Leaf service (and now some into Silver Leaf service). Gold Leaf service came later through Colorado Railcar purchases. I thnk VIA was already in its decline and could spare these car types for the Rockies by Daylight journey........I've seen some brochures where they used former dayniter coaches on the route, but still retained a large window, which was key. Never say the consists with a dome car. Rocky is now sort of offering all dome car service through Silver Leaf and Gold Leaf Service and dropping Red Leaf. However, it would seem that they are going more for the higher price point than volume, as there are not that many Gold Leaf or Silver Leaf cars around - compared to Red Leaf cars.

Anyone else have insight?

For the record, I enjoy riding Rocky Mountaineer (Vancouver to Banff and North Vancouver to Jasper via Quesnel), but I do not like how they have don't serve the Canadian people in any way with rail service (even for major stops). Yes, this would change their operating model (and business model), but I just WISH they could dedicate one car to perhaps serve a semi-local market. Their anti-VIA attitude is also more to be desired. However I do have to wonder if they are looking closely at VIA's Prestige program - perhaps VIA's last ditch effort to keep the Canadian running.

jp1822 Wrote:
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> I've only seen VIA's Rockies by Daylight train
> used with the old Blue and Yellow ex-CN cars.
> These were then sold  to the Armstrong folks who
> restored them into Red Leaf service (and now some
> into Silver Leaf service). Gold Leaf service came
> later through Colorado Railcar purchases. I thnk
> VIA was already in its decline and could spare
> these car types for the Rockies by Daylight
> journey........I've seen some brochures where they
> used former dayniter coaches on the route, but
> still retained a large window, which was key.
> Never say the consists with a dome car. Rocky is
> now sort of offering all dome car service through
> Silver Leaf and Gold Leaf Service and dropping Red
> Leaf. However, it would seem that they are going
> more for the higher price point than volume, as
> there are not that many Gold Leaf or Silver Leaf
> cars around - compared to Red Leaf cars.
>
> Anyone else have insight?
>

Via made the decision to rebuild only the ex-CP Budd stainless steel cars, and to acquire other stainless steel cars when they made the decision to eliminate steam heat in favour of head end power. There was sound thinking in this decision. The "smooth side" cars steel cars had a much greater tendency to have rust and corrosion than the stainless steel cars.

Also, many of the smooth side "Blue Fleet" cars were older , having been acquired from other railways, or heavily rebuilt from heavy weight equipment by CN.

The equipment belonged to the Canadian Government and was theirs to dispose of a whatever price they chose. It was sold cheaply and quickly lest the Canadian Government be pressured into re-instating services they had cut.

Rocky Mountaineer hired car inspectors who knew what to look for when purchasing the former Via "blue fleet" cars. Some of the fleet came with the purchase of the train service in 1990, and included some "Dayniter" cars which had previously been converted from sleeping cars by CN.

Several other short lived tourist trains had acquired Via smooth side cars at the time of the big sell off, and these came back on the market to be purchased later by Rocky Mountaineer. The Okanagan Wine train and the Waterloo & St.Jacobs were a source of many cars for Rocky Mountaineer.

Sometime in the mid-1990's, the decision was made to convert the Rocky Mountaineer fleet from steam heat to head end power. They did this at their own facilities in Kamloops.
A significant number of older cars were scrapped, and others reconfigured as power generator cars.

There still are significant numbers of ex-Via, ex-CN cars around, and even some ex-Ontario Northland baggage cars. These are crew cars of various configurations, baggage cars for the Seattle service (coaches with windows covered over), and power generator cars, plus a couple of lounge cars .

Rocky Mountaineer announced their biggest investment yet in 2015, when they ordered 10 "Gold Leaf" cars from Stadtler Railcar in Switzerland for delivery in 2018.

eminence_grise Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jp1822 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I've only seen VIA's Rockies by Daylight train
> > used with the old Blue and Yellow ex-CN cars.
> > These were then sold  to the Armstrong folks
> who
> > restored them into Red Leaf service (and now
> some
> > into Silver Leaf service). Gold Leaf service
> came
> > later through Colorado Railcar purchases. I
> thnk
> > VIA was already in its decline and could spare
> > these car types for the Rockies by Daylight
> > journey........I've seen some brochures where
> they
> > used former dayniter coaches on the route, but
> > still retained a large window, which was key.
> > Never say the consists with a dome car. Rocky
> is
> > now sort of offering all dome car service
> through
> > Silver Leaf and Gold Leaf Service and dropping
> Red
> > Leaf. However, it would seem that they are
> going
> > more for the higher price point than volume, as
> > there are not that many Gold Leaf or Silver
> Leaf
> > cars around - compared to Red Leaf cars.
> >
> > Anyone else have insight?
> >
>
> Via made the decision to rebuild only the ex-CP
> Budd stainless steel cars, and to acquire other
> stainless steel cars when they made the decision
> to eliminate steam heat in favour of head end
> power. There was sound thinking in this decision.
> The "smooth side" cars steel cars had a much
> greater tendency to have rust and corrosion than
> the stainless steel cars.
>
> Also, many of the smooth side "Blue Fleet" cars
> were older , having been acquired from other
> railways, or heavily rebuilt from heavy weight
> equipment by CN.
>
> The equipment belonged to the Canadian Government
> and was theirs to dispose of a whatever price they
> chose. It was sold cheaply and quickly lest the
> Canadian Government be pressured into re-instating
> services they had cut.
>
> Rocky Mountaineer hired car inspectors who knew
> what to look for when purchasing the former Via
> "blue fleet" cars. Some of the fleet came with the
> purchase of the train service in 1990, and
> included some "Dayniter" cars which had previously
> been converted from sleeping cars by CN.
>
> Several other short lived tourist trains had
> acquired Via smooth side cars at the time of the
> big sell off, and these came back on the market to
> be purchased later by Rocky Mountaineer. The
> Okanagan Wine train and the Waterloo & St.Jacobs
> were a source of many cars for Rocky Mountaineer.
>
> Sometime in the mid-1990's, the decision was made
> to convert the Rocky Mountaineer fleet from steam
> heat to head end power. They did this at their own
> facilities in Kamloops.
> A significant number of older cars were scrapped,
> and others reconfigured as power generator cars.
>
> There still are significant numbers of ex-Via,
> ex-CN cars around, and even some ex-Ontario
> Northland baggage cars. These are crew cars of
> various configurations, baggage cars for the
> Seattle service (coaches with windows covered
> over), and power generator cars, plus a couple of
> lounge cars .
>
> Rocky Mountaineer announced their biggest
> investment yet in 2015, when they ordered 10 "Gold
> Leaf" cars from Stadtler Railcar in Switzerland
> for delivery in 2018.

This may be their biggest investment, but it is only 10 cars that have to be split between three major routes! And delivery will also take time. I was also surprised to find out that there's only really a handful of cars being converted to Silver Leaf service. It would seem that Rocky is keeping some of the Red Leaf cars around for crew or perhaps special moves. There was a train that went out of Jasper to Vancouver via Quesnel a few weeks ago that had at best one Gold Leaf Coach and one Silver Leaf Coach! That's a two car train. However, each passenger is paying a couple grand each though! But a few years ago, there were at least three Red Leaf coaches filled and one Gold Leaf (if not two). Is the Rocky Mountaineer passenger count down this year? I have to wonder because I have been getting TONS of promos from Rocky.  

eminence_grise Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Several other short lived tourist trains had
> acquired Via smooth side cars at the time of the
> big sell off, and these came back on the market to
> be purchased later by Rocky Mountaineer. The
> Okanagan Wine train and the Waterloo & St.Jacobs
> were a source of many cars for Rocky Mountaineer.

I think "many" is a stretch. The 2013 Canadian Trackside Guide shows four cars in the Rocky fleet from the Okanagan Wine Train and two from the Waterloo & St. Jacobs. Other than that there were three generator cars that came from other owners that had purchased them from VIA. The vast majority of Rocky's non-Gold Leaf cars were bought directly from VIA; nearly 50 by my count of the CTG listing.

As mentioned earlier, the Blue and Yellow cars were non-HEP. I wonder how the cars were run without a steam generator. I would guess they just used the power from the axles and batteries, but they don't have another form of heat or A/C that I know of. Any ideas on that?

rrpreservation Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As mentioned earlier, the Blue and Yellow cars
> were non-HEP. I wonder how the cars were run
> without a steam generator. I would guess they just
> used the power from the axles and batteries, but
> they don't have another form of heat or A/C that I
> know of. Any ideas on that?

During the summer months, they ran on axle generators and batteries. Both Via and Rocky Mountaineer had GMD steam generator cars for colder weather.