Canadian Railroads > CP 4-10-2 cab forward proposal

Whilst browsing the pages of Facebook some time ago - came across this interesting
story and picture.  The caption stated that an "Old Time Trains" article published in 1987
featured mention of a proposal by the Canadian Pacific doing a rebuild of a 2-10-4 "Selkirk"
into a 4-10-2 "Connaught" cab forward.  Imagine that!

/Mitch



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/16 19:16 by Mgoldman.

---

Eh?

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

You know what they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Have fun, be safe,
Bruce "Doc" Jones  Sierra Madre CA

Mitch ---
Thanks so much for this fascinating info!  I had no idea
this ws ever considered by any other road than the SP.   
Sounded like a great idea, especially for running throuogh
the Spiral Tunnels.

That is a beautiful painting.

REALLY???
A coal-burner?  
Where did they put the coal conveyor tube?
[. Oooops...maybe looks like oil tank in the tender....confused by not clear rendering...my bad....] w.

[delete]THAT would be a STRETCH.... So to speak...

A BIG challenge is to engineer a successful design to make the 4-wheel leading truck a functional apparatus....you can't use the traier's original rockers and center pivot simply by flopping ends.  The existing trailer truck centering scheme would not be capable of guiding the mass of the boiler, frame, trailing train weight,  and the monstrous lever 'moment' yanking the cab and engine's front off the rails....

Not much chance of success, there.  As a one-off, it would be curious.  As a separate class, they would be a disaster....

W.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/16 07:14 by wcamp1472.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> REALLY???
> A coal-burner?  
> Where did they put the coal conveyor tube?
> [. Oooops...maybe looks like oil tank in the
> tender....confused by not clear rendering...my
> bad....] w.
>
> THAT would be a STRETCH.... So to speak...
>
> A BIG challenge is to engineer a successful design
> to make the 4-wheel leading truck a functional
> apparatus....you can't use the traier's original
> rockers and center pivot simply by flopping ends.
>  The existing trailer truck centering scheme
> would not be capable of guiding the mass of the
> boiler, frame, trailing train weight,  and the
> monstrous lever 'moment' yanking the cab and
> engine's front off the rails....
>
> Not much chance of success, there.  As a one-off,
> it would be curious.  As a separate class, they
> would be a disaster....
>
> W.

SP figured out how to do it. Those CP guys could be pretty smart too.

There was an article in the Trains Magazine June 1987 issue about this proposal.

Don

Any idea what year the design/proposal was created?

Like most RR's the mountain districts developed over the years, if not ffighting snowslides and heavy grades they had to deal with rock slides and heavy grades.

west Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There was an article in the Trains Magazine June
> 1987 issue about this proposal.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "proposal", it was just a What-If article by someone who once worked in CP's shops.  The article covered the many, many items that would need to be changed and why, including the trailing truck becoming the lead truck as mentioned earlier in this thread.  It's a great article that says much about just how complicated steam locomotives can be.

CP did plan a variety of locomotives that never progressed beyond the drawing board.  One was even assigned the "Q" class nomenclature. This would have been a 2-8-4 "Berkshire".

​Henry Bowen, the London Midland & Scottish trained Chief Mechanical Officer for CP was not afraid to ask counterparts on other railroads for design advice. The worst they could do is say no, and in some cases they were very helpful in relating how their locomotives performed. In the end, CP chose other wheel arrangements but I always wondered if Bowen chatted to the Nickle Plate about their Berkshires. He did talk to the NYC about their Hudsons.

Bowen's mentors in the UK would have been Fowler and later Stanier, who both created some memorable locomotive designs and also improved older designs. So did Bowen in Canada.

Margaret_SP_fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks so much for this fascinating info!  I had
> no idea
> this ws ever considered by any other road than the
> SP.   

The original cab-forward was actually built by the Northwestern Pacific as a crazy experiment that went nowhere.

The Western Pacific, with tunnel ventilation concerns of their own, considered rebuilding their 2-6-6-2 Mallets into cab-forwards, but the crews wanted as much boiler between them and the rocks tossed around by the Feather River Canyon, so that idea was nixed.

Z

The original artist obviously had enough information to know, at his point in space and time, that whether or not this design was feasible as a center-pin connected leading truck (not a radial truck) the engine could stay on the track and help keep traffic moving on "The Hill".

An amazing (no, AMAZING) immage of an outstanding proposal.

Thanx for posting it.

-JLS