Canadian Railroads > Canadians Meet at Renfrew - Three for Gerry

For -Unit Friday I posted some shots of the last Canadians from and to Windsor Station meeting at Renfrew, October 28, 1978. The link is as follows:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?15,4229580
If you checked it out early on, you may have missed Gerry Gaugl's Reply post of three more photos. Two of them are great interior shots of the dining car, and you should check them out if you missed them. What triggers this post is Gerry's first photo, shot from the front left of the Skyline car in #3, looking at the passing #4 behind RS-10 8579.
1. As I looked at the details, I realized that a split second earlier, I took a going-away shot looking almost straight back at Gerry. In this photo, you'll see that 8579 hasn't quite gotten to the front edge of the Skyline car, when Gerry took his shot. If I'd waited a split second, I might have gotten Gerry on the right of my shot.
2. I resisted this shot earlier; somehow it feels like cheating to shoot the Park car, it always looks good. In this case, it's Assiniboine Park, and 8579 is just starting to open up and the plume is out.
3. Gerry, I hope I'm right, but if you held station, then I did take a photo of you in the Skyline car. Look at the departing #3, behind 1412, and you'll see the silhouette of someone's head in the dome - maybe that's you! I did not record the name of the Park car, nor can I make it out in my photo. Enjoy.
Fred

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These are great shots.  But they leave me a bit confused.  I'll start by saying that I know very little about passenger trains.  Perhaps you or Gerry can answer my questions.  I don't understand how the eastbound is the last CP Canadian.  That day in October 1978 the last westbound CP Canadian departed Montreal.  Wouldn't the last eastbound CP Canadian have departed Vancouver on the same day?  If it did, it certainly didn't get to Renfrew in a few hours.  How is it that both the final westbound and final eastbound departed and arrived Montreal on the same day?  Did the final eastbound Canadian depart Vancouver with a three day head start?  And if so, why?

Ken Goslett

kgmontreal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These are great shots.  But they leave me a bit
> confused.  I'll start by saying that I know very
> little about passenger trains.  Perhaps you or
> Gerry can answer my questions.  I don't
> understand how the eastbound is the last CP
> Canadian.  That day in October 1978 the last
> westbound CP Canadian departed Montreal. 
> Wouldn't the last eastbound CP Canadian have
> departed Vancouver on the same day?  If it did,
> it certainly didn't get to Renfrew in a few
> hours.  How is it that both the final westbound
> and final eastbound departed and arrived Montreal
> on the same day?  Did the final eastbound
> Canadian depart Vancouver with a three day head
> start?  And if so, why?
>
> Ken Goslett

Ken,
I'll preface my reply by saying I don't know a heck of a lot about train operations. I don't study it, so much as pick it up as I'm out trackside or talking to someone. So I think I am correct in this, but stand to be corrected (that's one of the things I like about Trainorders). Anyway, I think these two Canadians meeting at Renfrew on October 28, 1978, were the last ones to use CP's Windsor Station as departure and arrival points. After that, they ran out of and into CN's Central Station. I thought. But there have always been hundreds of railfans who know a heck of a lot more than me.
Fred

Nice pictures!

Posted from Android

> Ken,
> I'll preface my reply by saying I don't know a
> heck of a lot about train operations. I don't
> study it, so much as pick it up as I'm out
> trackside or talking to someone. So I think I am
> correct in this, but stand to be corrected (that's
> one of the things I like about Trainorders).
> Anyway, I think these two Canadians meeting at
> Renfrew on October 28, 1978, were the last ones to
> use CP's Windsor Station as departure and arrival
> points. After that, they ran out of and into CN's
> Central Station. I thought. But there have always
> been hundreds of railfans who know a heck of a lot
> more than me.
> Fred

The day after the last CPR Canadian departed CPR Windsor Station in Montreal a VIA transcon passenger train departed Montreal's CN Central Station.  It ran to Dorval, backed across the connecting track and continued west from Dorval on CPR to Ottawa just as the Canadian had.  But it was not a stainless steel Canadian trainset.  It was essentially a CN Super Continental trainset.

So what you're saying is that the eastbound you met in Renfrew was the last Canadian to arrive at Windsor Station.  The other two that were en route from Vancouver terminated at Montreal's Central Station.

I suppose the idea is that at midnight that night the CPR's Canadians, regardless of where they were, became VIA Canadians.

Ken



 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/17 12:22 by kgmontreal.

Thank-you very much for posting additional shots of my train.  There was so much going on that day, lots of people out to see the train. i remember talking to Bruce Chapman, other friends and CP personnel whom I knew from Walkley Yard.  I was not going to ride the train but Doug and Doug convinced me to do other wise, I'm glad I did.  After seeing your great series of photos , I'm happy that I let the picture taking to you.  Many thanks once again.
Gerry Gaugl
Ottawa ON

Now on to Ken's questions.
 

kgmontreal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These are great shots.  But they leave me a bit
> confused.  I'll start by saying that I know very
> little about passenger trains.  Perhaps you or
> Gerry can answer my questions.  I don't
> understand how the eastbound is the last CP
> Canadian.  That day in October 1978 the last
> westbound CP Canadian departed Montreal. 
> Wouldn't the last eastbound CP Canadian have
> departed Vancouver on the same day?  If it did,
> it certainly didn't get to Renfrew in a few
> hours.  How is it that both the final westbound
> and final eastbound departed and arrived Montreal
> on the same day?  Did the final eastbound
> Canadian depart Vancouver with a three day head
> start? 

Good point Ken,
.
​On October 28, 1978 at around 16:00 we had have the last pair of CP's edition of The Canadian, ​trains 3 and 4 meeting in Renfrew, ON.  On the same day we had 4 eastbound, ​and 4 westbound editions of The Canadian.  A train No.2 would be leaving Vancouver at 16:00 (19:00 Renfrew time), the next No.2 would have been 10 minutes east of Calgary at 16:00 (Renfrew time), the third No.2 would have been near Upsula, ON at 16:00 Renfrew time, 15:00 Upsula time. The last No.2 for the day would have been making its penultimate station stop at West Toronto, 10 minutes later its last stop, Toronto Union.

​No.1 would have have been sitting under the train shed at 16:00 waiting for its 16:45 departure time.  The next No.1 at 16:00, would still be in the eastern time zone as it approached Raith, ON.  At the same moment, the third No.1 would have been blasting through Gleichen, AB.  The last No.1 of October 28 would have been in the process of being serviced after completing its 2880 mile journey to Canada west coast.  I would have added "and restocked the train" but decided not to after reading Phil Mason's story about CP clearing out everything before handing the cars over to VIA.

​When the new time table came in effect at 00:01 Sunday October 29th, 1978 all these CP trains as well as the CN train became passenger extras, showing white class lights and white flags.  The meet in Renfrew captured on film by Fred Clark were not the last trains 1 and 2 but were certainly the last 3 and 4.

​When we arrived in Sudbury, we took a 15 mile cab ride to Capreol, ON.  There we saw the last CN Super Continental No.4 to be split into a Montréal section (No.2) and a Toronto section (No.4).  Before both sections of the "Super" left Capreol the white class light were switched on and the two trains departed the station as "passenger extras".

​As for the other passenger extras, they seemed to loose cars along the way.  The last former CN transcon train I saw in Ottawa was on October 30th, 1978; it was slightly shorter than usual.  Ray Farrand took a photo of a former CP Canadian passing through Ottawa and it was an RS-10, baggage car, coach, a Skyline and a sleeper if I remember correctly.

​Photo: 1
​The two sections of CN's Super Continental wait for their departure times.  Because they will not be scheduled CN train as of 00:01 Sunday October 29, 1978 they will run as passenger extras.  FPA-4 6767 heads the Montréal section while FP9A 6510 heads the Toronto section.  Capreol, ON   Oct 28,1978

​Photo: 2
​The 1st VIA Canadian to leave Toronto.  The main difference is the addition of a ex-CN steam generator car and a VIA "Dayniter" to the consist.  Toronto ON  October 29, 1978

​Photo: 3
​VIA's Canadian starting out from Toronto on its 1st journey to Vancouver, BC.  Both photos taken from the Bathurst Street bridge, Toronto ON.  October 29, 1978

 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/17 07:20 by moonliter.

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Thanks, Gerry.  You understood what I was getting at and explained it well.

KG

Beginning in October '78, did the Super Continental leaving from Central Station but switching over to CP at Dorval have a Skyline Dome or Park Car? (It did have a Sceneramic Dome added at Winnipeg or Edmonton)

Had the clearances in Central Station been increased to allow Dome Cars to enter? Could those final “extra” Canadians with Domes terminate in Central?

In June ’79 the Canadian began running out of Montreal......and the Super Continental out of Toronto so the clearances must have been increased at Central by then.

If I remember correctly only certain tracks at Central Station could accommodate a dome car.  It may have been only one or two tracks.

KG

ghCBNS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Beginning in October '78, did the Super
> Continental leaving from Central Station but
> switching over to CP at Dorval have a Skyline Dome
> or Park Car? (It did have a Sceneramic Dome added
> at Winnipeg or Edmonton)
No they did not, the mixing of CN equipment with CP equipment began on October 29, 1978.  The only photo I have of the VIA "Super" in Ottawa did not have any dome cars.  I do not know for sure if that was the norm or that I was just unlucky that day.
> Had the clearances in Central Station been
> increased to allow Dome Cars to enter? Could those
> final “extra” Canadians with Domes terminate
> in Central?
I do not think so. I think CP just ran the extras to CP stations in Montréal, Winnipeg and Vancouver.  From there the cars were transferred to VIA.  Take CP extra (train 4) as an example, it would have made its Ottawa stop at 17:55.  The new VIA "Super" through Ottawa was due at 19:40.  It made more sence to run the extra to Winsdor Station then tranfer the consist to VIA there. Do not forget the extra trains were not picking up passengers after October 30th,1978.  The CP extra that ran through Ottawa was one locomotive and 4 cars, rather than the 6 or 7 cars that had been the norm prior to October 29th.  Somewhere down the line the cars were taken off and put in to VIA service. 
> In June ’79 the Canadian began running out of
> Montreal......and the Super Continental out of
> Toronto so the clearances must have been increased
> at Central by then.
Gerry Gaugl
Ottawa ON



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/17 20:13 by moonliter.