European Railroad Discussion > France: 1 Billion Profits for SNCF HS in 2012

French SNCF has reported a 959 million euros / 1,25 billion USD operating profits on its TGV fleet for 2012. This with the market "flat", actually increasing 2,5%. SNCF other operations Eurostar, Thalys and TGV-Lyria contributed to result. According to the news SNCF has also run a lot of DB Paris - Germany services due to DB ICE3 class 406Ms still being unreliable.

For the 2013 the forecast shows still flat terrain, the weather being somewhat overcast with the 4,8% access charges increase in France. The trains are charged for each kilometers by the axle count. Which in fact makes the articulated TGVs more effective than the ICE3s with more axles / coach/module. And would make the Talgo sets extremely cost effective (not knowing their other costs).

In pictures TGV-Dasye units at Gare de Lyon in Paris. The interior picture shows the unit 709 first class (or is this actually second class?).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/13 01:30 by McKey.

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Just remembered: this is also the company that California coolly rejected for offering working HS rail operations & consulting! (They told the French to pack their suitcases and go home because the Nazi occupied France during the WW2 shipped people to concentration camps).

What an enormous sum of stupidity in the West!

McKey Wrote:
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>
> In pictures TGV-Dasye units at Gare de Lyon in
> Paris. The interior picture shows the unit 709
> first class (or is this actually second class?).

First class = 2 + 1 seating.

This time of year the ridership levels are way down. Wait until August and the annual French vacation.

Fare prices are generally standardized, there is no premium for busy periods like there is in the UK. And with reserved seating only you do have to plan ahead. Even so, it is possible to change the reservation with the non-discounted tickets, even cancel and get your money back. These rules seem to contribute to the bottom line and I am delighted to see such a reasonable profit.

Ah yes, simple mistake of mine. Not enough coffee in circulation yet ;)

Focalplane Wrote:
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> First class = 2 + 1 seating.

Focalplane Wrote:
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>
> This time of year the ridership levels are way
> down. Wait until August and the annual French
> vacation.
>
Except around Easter! Last Tuesday we were booked on the 14.16 from Valence TGV to Lille (for London). Owing to a slight oversight on my part (I got the time wrong!) we missed the train by two minutes. All subsequent trains giving connection to London by either Paris or Lille were fully booked in both classes with the result that we had to take the train from Valence Ville to Lyon Part Dieu, the tram to the airport and a very expensive BA flight to London. Consequently my discretionary budget on Model railway equipment is somewhat restricted and I am not yet fully forgiven!

However I did grab a shot with my phone out of the back of the tram - a minor compensation.

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spflow Wrote:
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> Focalplane Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > This time of year the ridership levels are way
> > down. Wait until August and the annual French
> > vacation.
> >
> Except around Easter! Last Tuesday we were booked
> on the 14.16 from Valence TGV to Lille (for
> London). Owing to a slight oversight on my part (I
> got the time wrong!) we missed the train by two
> minutes. All subsequent trains giving connection
> to London by either Paris or Lille were fully
> booked in both classes with the result that we had
> to take the train from Valence Ville to Lyon Part
> Dieu, the tram to the airport and a very expensive
> BA flight to London. Consequently my discretionary
> budget on Model railway equipment is somewhat
> restricted and I am not yet fully forgiven!
>
> However I did grab a shot with my phone out of the
> back of the tram - a minor compensation.

Yet the next day train 5166 was nearly empty between Valence and Paris CDG! Your alternative journey reminds us all how easy it is to make mistakes. I once arrived at Gare du Nord and couldn't understand why my ticket wouldn't open the barrier. Turns out I had booked the wrong day. With Eurostar's rules that meant buying a new ticket. SNCF's own policies can be quite generous, but then maybe they are only generous to Carte Senior holders!

I initially thought that your shot out of the tram was actually from a TGV!

Exactly my thoughts too that it would be of some EMU, not tram, with all the technology seen in it!

Focalplane Wrote:
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> I initially thought that your shot out of the
> tram was actually from a TGV!

Sorry to hear about your hassle after loosing the train connection. And yours and Focalplane's story tells where the competition can later hit the Eurostar: customer oriented service! What does it matter if the ticket is bought the wrong day if it is bought (these are isolated incidents, not masses of people moving around). Again, if you had been given a permission to ride the next train say on fold down seat or corridor, you would had been much happier. Inflexibility in customer service has destroyed companies before, and since learning is so very hard for certain companies, will do that again.

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McKey Wrote:
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> French SNCF has reported a 959 million euros /
> 1,25 billion USD operating profits on its TGV
> fleet for 2012. This with the market "flat",
> actually increasing 2,5%. SNCF other operations
> Eurostar, Thalys and TGV-Lyria contributed to
> result. According to the news SNCF has also run a
> lot of DB Paris - Germany services due to DB ICE3
> class 406Ms still being unreliable.
>
> For the 2013 the forecast shows still flat
> terrain, the weather being somewhat overcast with
> the 4,8% access charges increase in France. The
> trains are charged for each kilometers by the axle
> count. Which in fact makes the articulated TGVs
> more effective than the ICE3s with more axles /
> coach/module. And would make the Talgo sets
> extremely cost effective (not knowing their other
> costs).
>
> In pictures TGV-Dasye units at Gare de Lyon in
> Paris. The interior picture shows the unit 709
> first class (or is this actually second class?).

John,

When they say "profit" what do they mean? Total costs of the line, equipment, maintenance, on board crews etc.? "Profit" can mean different things to different people.

Thanks.

J.

Focalplane Wrote:
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> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Focalplane Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I initially thought that your shot out of the
> tram was actually from a TGV!


The speedometer was reading 100kph!

J.Ferris Wrote:
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> John,
>
> When they say "profit" what do they mean? Total
> costs of the line, equipment, maintenance, on
> board crews etc.? "Profit" can mean different
> things to different people.
>
> Thanks.
>
> J.

In France the railway infrastructure is treated just like highways, and are owned by the National government, The Train Operators pay a Track Access Charge (user fee). The Track Access charges varies by type of track, zone, time of day, etc.

Yes, the division is supposed to go something like this, but some nations, including France are lagging behind in structuring. Please make additions and discuss where I'm not not quite writing to the point, but I'll try to remember everything:

Public part:
-> Rail lines are within European Union part of the public sector just like road, air routes and waterways, or even electricity lines. Normally there is a public organization that takes care of these and their needs. This organization also collects the access charges (In France based on axle kilometers, the fee can be sizable)
-> National Parliaments decide on the rail and infrastructure investments, based on competing plans. They also decide on the money spent on maintenance and development of the existing infra.
-> European Union have their rail development programs under TEN-T, a new one has just been released. Of the earlier programs of TEN-T, the Southern European programs have been in many cases realized.
-> There is another public organization for organizing the traffic and to give slots to the operators for the lines. This is a very important part to ensure the equality of all operators wishing to have running slots.
-> Fourth organization takes care of much of the stations etc., guaranteeing free access to all operators alike. I think this change is just now in progress everywhere in Europe.
-> A very common arrangement is a public train owner company that owns some of the the rolling stock to be used for traffic in a certain area.
-> Normally the public body that gives money for subsidized (mostly local) (but competed through tendering) rail traffic makes continuous research on how well the traffic works and how satisfied the customers are. If the targets are not met, the train opera-tore gets less money and in some cases the deal can be made to end immediately, or threatened so. Both have happened in Sweden and Finland quite recently. This organizer of traffic has a whole view of the traffic (HSL in Helsinki, SL in Stockholm and STIFF in Paris) and makes development to traffic patterns all the time with the money it has to use.

Private part:
-> Operators with safety certificate, license to operate and accepted rolling stock can basically run anywhere within EU. They pay for each kilometer they run (in France by axle count) and / or other expenses. They also take care of their marketing, adds and customer satisfaction and act as the middle man when infra fails and customer needs to be compensated.
-> Private companies take care of almost all maintenance of lines, station and infra.
-> For a certain route rolling stock there can be a company taking care of the rolling stock maintenance, one for security, another for operating the trains and the fourth one taking care of cleaning. It all works very well _if_ it is organized well.
-> Any development program, building projects etc. are done by private organizations. (for example Thales takes care of many line safety equipment maintenance and new building for much of Europe, their personnel simply drive around around from one target to another).


Then the French part of the answer:
-> RFF collects access charges of SNCF for running their trains. This is done by axle kilometers.
--> The TGV fleet runs mostly high speed lines, almost all of which are quite profitable, _all_ costs included. Some, like the new LGV-EST, are subsidized (for the moment, I think there will be no need for this in a longer run) also locally by the cities it serves.
-> SNCF has divided its operations to several sectors, so the super high speed section profit of 959 m euros / 1,25 billion USD is as genuine as it can be inside a company. With the current TGV fleet you have to realize the profit per train is only around 1,5 million euros / 2 million USD per year per unit, still a sizable sum of money.


I also criticized the Californians for sending arrogant French to home prematurely. The standard procedure is to have the phase 1 super high speed operation in place before doing this. Existing and well working systems further developments are much easier to achieve. I think the Spanish did follow this pattern, and now they have a wide well working super high speed network in use after only 3 decades of building! I doubt there will be any substantial super high speed activity in California after 3 decades (one decade already spent arguing), as they will be missing the true experience for making the operations profitable. Like the trains, why not take something that really works instead of developing something totally new and for sure not working? Taken from the airline industry: If you are opening a new airway between San Francisco and LA, why in the earth would you need to create a new airliner type for this? The super high speed trains cost 50% of the same size airplanes cost, use similar high speed technology and many other aspects also apply, so using the existing well working concepts is the key to success.


J.Ferris Wrote:
--------------------------------------------------
> John,
>
> When they say "profit" what do they mean? Total
> costs of the line, equipment, maintenance, on
> board crews etc.? "Profit" can mean different
> things to different people.
>
> Thanks.