European Railroad Discussion > Will Scottish independence ........

Change the rail options London-Edinburgh? My bride and I have not made plans yet for this
trip but will need to do so fairly soon. I ask as I am not sure who owns the rail lines. If private
Probably no big deal, but if state owned might there be issues?

Not likely to cause a problem. most services in Scotland are handled by Scotrail, and neither Scotland or England are likely to cut themselves off from the outside world.

In the long term who knows? This whole situation has many, many unknowns.

The vote today (18 Sep 2014) is only the first step. IF the vote is yes the plan seems to be to have a negotiation leading to actual separation in 2016. If the vote is no, nothing charges.

So long as you will be travelling before 2016 (and it sounds like you will be) then I don't believe anything will change so go ahead and book.

The nightmare scenario is if Scotland votes Yes today, and assuming negotiations lead to 'independence' in 2016 and Scotland apply to join the EU and are not rebuffed by Spain, and possibly France, then they will be obliged to sign up to the Schengen open borders treaty. As the UK is currently not a Schengen country that will mean erecting a border between the two countries.

Where's Emperor Hadrian when you need him?

Of perhaps more immediate relevance in any (potential) negotiations is: how will the £34 billion debt of Network Rail, the nationalised infrastructure provider, be divided between the two nations?

86235 Wrote:
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> The nightmare scenario ......... will mean
> erecting a border between the two countries.

Why would this be a nightmare from a rail standpoint ? Wouldn't private vehicle and coach, and to a lesser extent air, traffic be more affected than rail ? It could well have positive consequences for rail, freight as well as passenger.

And of course should Scots choose independence, they might not then wish to exchange dictates from London for those from Brussels -- but a border would, in my opinion, still be a good idea....

Best, SZ

If Scotland votes YES, to quote a well known phrase from an airline programme on Discovery TV "Hang on to your hats boys!"

Keith G, London, UK

But outside either the UK or the EU the Scots economy would be completely devastated - they would have to make a difficult choice.

Nick is right, a border would be appalling for trains. Look at the ridiculous charade that takes place on Eurostar, especially at Paris where passengers fro the UK have to check in and be vetted, while identical trains to other European states (Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg, etc) depart from ordinary tracks where boarding can take place up to a minute before departure.

sp, you may have missed my point: IF a border were appalling for trains -- and that's a big "if" -- it would be more appalling for other modes, and rail could win.

As far as the "check in" at Paris Nord for Eurostar vs a train to, say, Belgium, you are comparing apples to apples; the real comparisons should be with delays due to HM customs / immigration at ports or airports. And I can't recall any delay or even inconvenience in traveling from Paris to Belgium -- or for that matter, crossing any other Western European border by train -- in pre-Schengen days; can you ?

Best, SZ

Steinzeit Wrote:
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> sp, you may have missed my point: IF a border
> were appalling for trains -- and that's a big "if"
> -- it would be more appalling for other modes, and
> rail could win.

That is not the experience of Channel Tunnel freight in the 21st century. Tonnage by road has increased whilst that by train has stagnated. There's also the cost to consider (for both countries), a sea border is relatively easy to police, not so a land border.

86235 Wrote:
> That is not the experience of Channel Tunnel
> freight in the 21st century. Tonnage by road has
> increased whilst that by train has stagnated.

Surely the failure of Chunnel all-rail freight to live up to its realistic promise [ as distinct from Investor Prospectus Promise ] or growth is due to more than just border controls; such things as fires, track charges, the implosion of SNCF Fret, the French pathing problems, etc, have all contributed.

But were there a second Hadrian Wall -- though preferably this time facing the other way ! -- I could see freight trains running from, say Antwerp / Rotterdam to the Lowlands "in bond" through Britain, without the need for examination by HM customs at either border. This might require some constructive thought -- for example, container wagons with "wells" so that ISO top lift containers' doors could not be opened while entrained -- but does offer some opportunities for increased freight traffic. Or maybe I'm just a "The glass is half full -- what can we do to make it fuller ?" type of person.....

Best, SZ [ who wonders how his grandparents would have voted .....]

We can all relax!

But the Eurostar and Channel Tunnel freight problems remain. Yes I know the the two real issues are immigration and security, but I feel there may be better (and less mode selective) ways of dealing with these questions.

The Schengen agreement was always just "the icing on the cake" of a general set of approaches to international travel that, in western Europe at least, made it easy to travel from one country to another.

PS I note from my 1975 Britsh Rail European timetable that the "Silver Arrow" rail-air service from London to Paris (flying from Gatwick to Le Touquet) allowed only 25 minutes between train arrival at Gatwick and plane takeoff. No two hour minimum check-in then! How did they do it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/14 23:47 by spflow.

I used to live in Berkshire about 12 miles west of Heathrow. In the 1980s I could leave home, drive to one of the car parks on the north side of Heathrow, catch the shuttle bus to Terminal 1, get through security etc and catch a plane in an hour. Not arrive at the airport one hour before, leave home one hour before departure.

Before that I think the story of me at about age 8 in Vienna, in the 60s, also shows old values. My father had been round the world and my mother and I had flown to Vienna to meet him and have a holiday. Our plane landed a little before his and we had cleared immigration when we saw him join the immigration queue. Nothing and nobody stopped me as I rushed back through immigration to welcome him, just a gentle smile from the officials.

Going back to the railways and independence obviously nothing is going to change in the immediate future. However, the talk is now of more devolution. Some people are even talking about turning the UK into a federal system. I think it is possible that as a result of either (if anything actually happens) the way in which the railway, here in the UK, is financed and run could change so watch this space.

As far as your immediate question is concerned I reiterate, just carry on and book!

It won't, game over . Go ride the train in Scotland it's safe!

Steinzeit Wrote:
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And I can't
> recall any delay or even inconvenience in
> traveling from Paris to Belgium -- or for that
> matter, crossing any other Western European border
> by train -- in pre-Schengen days; can you ?
>
> Best, SZ

I recall going by train from Switzerland to Germany, pre-Schengen, stopping at the border and waiting for a passport check to be completed. I know that Switzerland is outside of EU.

Steinzeit Wrote:
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> is due to more than just border controls; such
> things as fires, track charges, the implosion of
> SNCF Fret, the French pathing problems, etc, have
> all contributed.

Yes all of that is true, but the illegal immigrant crisis in 2000/2001 was the straw that broke the camels back when it came to cross channel railfreight, and it's that issue, above all which would have influenced British government border policy in the event a new land border had to be policed. But it's all academic now.

I shall be celebrating with haggis and a wee dram this evening :-)

86235 Wrote:

> I shall be celebrating with haggis and a wee dram
> this evening :-)


So shall we!