European Railroad Discussion > Interesting article about London's New Tube project

http://www.dezeen.com/2014/10/09/priestmangoode-driverless-tube-trains-london-underground/

The train will be one big open car!

Circle and District line trains already use carriages with open ends (and air conditioning). They're great.

That's quite a computer mock-up. The New Tube looks very futuristic, although the completely open-car plan is a bit weird. I like the signs which change to display ads, maps, and information about the next stop. I think the scene in the video in which it zooms out and somebody is looking at the train and people within the train through a computer screen is funny, as in "And, as part of this awesome new Tube train project, some creepy dude will watch you as you commute to work!".

Tor, over across the Pond

I actually have a video of one of the circle line trains running this stock, will post in a couple weeks when I am back in the US.
Cheers,
Nick

The Vancouver Skytrain has been driverless since startup in the mid-1980's.

Much of this network is on a continuous concrete viaduct. Such is the nature of some parts of Vancouver BC that there are almost as many transit police checking for fare dodgers and roving gangs as there would have been drivers.

With the original lines approaching thirty years old, there have been some notable system wide control system shutdowns, which bring about costly and dangerous train evacuations. Hundreds of buses are used to replace the trains.

At some time soon, the whole Skytrain operating system will need up huge software and hardware upgrade. Someone likened it to still using Windows 98 or even DOS.

The newer "Canada" line uses much newer technology which is not compatible with the "Expo" and "Millenium" systems.

eminence_grise Wrote:
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> The Vancouver Skytrain has been driverless since
> startup in the mid-1980's.

Presumably similar technology to that used on London's Docklands Light Railway?

86235 Wrote:
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> eminence_grise Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Vancouver Skytrain has been driverless
> since
> > startup in the mid-1980's.
>
> Presumably similar technology to that used on
> London's Docklands Light Railway?

The UTDC, Urban Transit Development Commitee, created the ALRT (Advanced Light Rail Transit) system, using trains manufactured by Hawker Siddeley (later Bombardier) in Canada. Vancouver, Scarborough (Toronto suburb) and Detroit MI. were the only purchasers.
The Scarborough trains have drivers and run on a surface level route.

I'm told there are technical difference between LDR and the UTDC driverless systems.

I am unclear what all the fuss is about, other than a bit of political spin by the Mayor of London. Some London trains have been "driverless" (in the sense of being automatic) for almost 50 years. We now have two major routes (the Victoria and Jubilee lines) which are automatically controlled, nad in which teh driver functions as overseer and guard. I believe that all other lines are one man operated. The Docklands line opened in the 1980s explicitly (and dramatically) abolished drivers from the outset, but made a strong point of always having a staff member on board who could drive if needed.

I cannot see the proposal having anything to do with overall costs, but a great deal to do with intimidating all staff.

spflow Wrote:
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> We now have two major routes (the Victoria
> and Jubilee lines) which are automatically
> controlled.

The Central and Northern Lines have also been converted to Automatic Train Operation.

86235 Wrote:
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> spflow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > We now have two major routes (the Victoria
> > and Jubilee lines) which are automatically
> > controlled.
>
> The Central and Northern Lines have also been
> converted to Automatic Train Operation.

Thanks, I didn't know this, and to think I use the Northern Line several times a week! This explains the apparently clumsy use of the power control when approaching Camden Town from the south.

By the way, what is the point of automation?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/14 15:37 by spflow.

Very breifly the point of automation is

a) ability to fit more trains in - humans being necessarily inconsistent which leads to capacity limitations
b) actually takes pressure off the drivers - on very high frequency lines there is significant stress in driving right on the edge of the signalling performance - for example with signals often at orrange or double orange clearing to green on appoach.

Another forum which I look at has also complained about the way in which braking and accellerating seems especially fierce - the computers haven't yet been programmed to be gentle. That said at the London Underground tends to operate on full acceleration and full braking it will seem jerky in any situation.

But it is noticeable, particularly on the Northern Line that the system hasn't been fine tuned to maintain a constant speed. So power is applied, then cut, then applied, then cut again, and this goes on for the entire run between 2 stations. Very marked between Old Street and Angel. The Central Line seems much better in this respect.

cricketer8for9 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very breifly the point of automation is
>
> a) ability to fit more trains in - humans being
> necessarily inconsistent which leads to capacity
> limitations
> b) actually takes pressure off the drivers - on
> very high frequency lines there is significant
> stress in driving right on the edge of the
> signalling performance - for example with signals
> often at orrange or double orange clearing to
> green on appoach.
>
> Another forum which I look at has also complained
> about the way in which braking and accellerating
> seems especially fierce - the computers haven't
> yet been programmed to be gentle. That said at the
> London Underground tends to operate on full
> acceleration and full braking it will seem jerky
> in any situation.

Thanks for the response - I don't have a strong view either way. I am sure that in theory automatic control can improve the effective capacity, and I appreciate that the London underground is often operating close to that capacity. As for the stress, again I agree that driving on the Underground is really difficult, and not always consistent with a more customer oriented role. The Underground doesn't of course generally have anything other than red or green signal aspects. I guess the real and interesting question has to be how does one value these considerations and are they worth the cost of automation. I simply don't know, I am just rather suspicious when politicians start getting all excited about a particular policy!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/14 14:26 by spflow.