European Railroad Discussion > France: RIBs of Paris, Another Budd Design?

Being quite intrigued about the find of previous thread http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?17,3620621 that CP class 3250 are actually Budd license built. So here is another throw: do these RIBs of Paris also find their origins in ingenious American design? Or are they just a specimen of the many silver liners of France of time, maybe in fashion how the train was supposed to look like in 1960-1970s?

For the background these are now being withdrawn from the traffic of the Parisian northern suburbs, being replaced by EMUs. This RIB class has always been quite interesting to me, and this has also always been the reason for being harassed away taking pictures at stations. I can't figure why the French station personnel are bothered about RIB pictures? Unless they of course don't belong to the genre of "French Glorious Trains" being American design? ;)

Two first picture by Ilkka, taken at Stade de France Saint-Dennis station, the lower one is by me at classic Gare du Nord, 1000 meters south of the intermediate station.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/15 23:24 by McKey.

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The SNCF also had long distance equipment that looked very Budd like. The train I'm referring to is the famous Le Mistral which ran from Paris to Nice.

http://www.ina.fr/video/CAA8000870401
http://trains-worldexpresses.com/600/618-20m.JPG

I remember seeing this train in Paris back during one of my teenage back packing trips around Europe.

The French firm Carel et Fouché licensed the Budd Shotweld and related processes in 1936, and stainless rolling stock started to appear on French rails in 1937. The RIB [ Remorques inox de banlieue ] and all other SNCF stainless stock [ with the possible exception of one diesel railcar ] have been of French design; the RIB was rather literally the unpowered portion of the experimental AC "MU cars" Z9056 class [ which had traction equipment concentrated in one end vehicle ], adapted for pushpull operation from BB16500 or BB17000 class locomotives.

Hope that helps. SZ

This is interesting! I've also seen some older exhibition cars for SNCF very much like these, but none of them were painted silver. Have to check for pictures if I find them.

3rd_Raton Wrote:
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> The SNCF also had long distance equipment that
> looked very Budd like. The train I'm referring to
> is the famous Le Mistral which ran from Paris to
> Nice.
>
> http://www.ina.fr/video/CAA8000870401
> http://trains-worldexpresses.com/600/618-20m.JPG
>
> I remember seeing this train in Paris back during
> one of my teenage back packing trips around
> Europe.

Below another icon of French railroading, also seen on the Mistral video you linked. The shark nose locomotive type used extensively before the TGV was developed. Both color schemes are shown in video. There is no way telling if the number series match too as the film quality was "ancient".

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So the Budd period was at the height of the American stainless steel period too.

What you say about the Z9xxx I was actually wondering if RIBs were converted from these once the EMU equipment gave up, these all definitely share a lot of design features.

Steinzeit Wrote:
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> The French firm Carel et Fouché licensed the Budd
> Shotweld and related processes in 1936, and
> stainless rolling stock started to appear on
> French rails in 1937. The RIB [ Remorques inox de
> banlieue ] and all other SNCF stainless stock [
> with the possible exception of one diesel railcar
> ] have been of French design; the RIB was rather
> literally the unpowered portion of the
> experimental AC "MU cars" Z9056 class [ which had
> traction equipment concentrated in one end vehicle
> ], adapted for pushpull operation from BB16500 or
> BB17000 class locomotives.
>
> Hope that helps. SZ

No, the RIB's were all built new; there were only 4 of the Z's of that "class".

The Mistal video is a montage of different eras, but basically shows:
- CC6500 DC machines [ For Paris - Mar.]
- BB22200 AC-DC machines [ for Nice-Mar.]

SZ

McKey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Below another icon of French railroading, also
> seen on the Mistral video you linked. The shark
> nose locomotive type used extensively before the
> TGV was developed. Both color schemes are shown in
> video. There is no way telling if the number
> series match too as the film quality was
> "ancient".

The locomotive used for the Mistral was the larger Class CC 6500, which has a similar design look to the BB locomotives in your pictures. This is the locomotive seen in the older shots in the video.

Ray

That is what it looks like, & thanks! Unfortunately, I can't find any pics yet to post here from my collection of this class, but of course net if full of pictures of these. It appears the class CC 15000 is painted similarly, and shares most of the design features too.

Ray_Murphy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The locomotive used for the Mistral was the larger
> Class CC 6500, which has a similar design look to
> the BB locomotives in your pictures. This is the
> locomotive seen in the older shots in the video.
>
> Ray



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/15 00:18 by McKey.

Ray_Murphy Wrote:
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> The locomotive used for the Mistral was the larger
> Class CC 6500, which has a similar design look to
> the BB locomotives in your pictures.
>
> Ray

Here's 6521 at Gare de Austerlitz waiting to leave on the Capitole to Toulouse, taken in July or August 1976

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Wow, you've been there too! Excellent picture!

86235 Wrote:
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> Here's 6521 at Gare de Austerlitz waiting to leave
> on the Capitole to Toulouse, taken in July or
> August 1976

To summarise:

There was a lot of interest on both sides of the Atlantic in the use of stainless steel (and aluminium) for railway coach bodies from the 1930s onwards, partly because of the ability to avoid painting. One obstacle was the difficulty of working with the materials. Budd Corporation patented a welding technique which could be used on stainless steel without it losing its rustproof quality.

After the war it was this technique that was used by SNCF when they built large numbers of stainless steel vehicles (of their own design) for long distance and suburban use. The Germans also built large quantities of stainless steel coaches for secondary routes. Apart from a few sleepers built for the Wagons-Lits Co, I believe the Portuguese were the only other railway to use the technique on any scale. In the UK we used aluminium for rapid transit rolling stock exclusively since the late 1940s, but more recently this has all been painted rather than left untreated.

I just wonder, was the low weight of aluminum (and good things that follow from this) one of the factors originally? Or maybe it was just the exterior covered with aluminum?