European Railroad Discussion > Sleepers

One of the highlights of last weeks jaunt round Slovakia was seeing the handful of overnight trains which still operate carrying sleeping cars and couchettes. They remain a link to the days before high speed day trains (not that Slovakia actually has any of those!) when international night trains criss crossed the continent, picking up and dropping cars, providing a bewildering range of connections. So here are a few of the overnight trains I saw last week

1: The Poprad to Prague sleeper plus attached car carrier is awaiting the arrival of EN 444 the Slovakia from Kosice to which it will be added. The Slovakia when it arrives in Poprad consists of a Kosice to Cheb sleeper, two Kosice to Prague chair cars, a Kosice to Prague couchette and three Kosice to Prague sleepers

2: The Slovakian's couchette car, the train sits at Poprad for about 20 minutes whilst the attachment takes place.

3: The following morning the Slovakian's sister train, the Bohemia, with chair cars, couchettes and sleepers from Prague to Kosice and Humenne pulls into Poprad at about 07:05, 10 minutes late.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/15 11:51 by 86235.

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4: On Tuesday morning in the Hornad Valley north of Kosice and the first train I see 07:18 is the Polana, from Bratislava (dep 23:49) with a sleeper to Kosice (arr 06:50) and Presov (arr 07:39) via the secondary route through Zvolen

5: In the opposite direction 12 minutes later and it's the Slovakia which is due to arrive in Kosice at 07:41 

6: At Ruskov on the joint standard gauge/5' gauge route from Kosice to the border with Ukraine and the 10:09 stopping train from Cierna nad Tisou which also carries the through Kiev to Bratislava sleeper. Since last year the daily sleeper too and from Moscow has been discontinued (for obvious reasons as it has to pass through Ukraine) and been replaced by this car from Kiev

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7: Later on that day I shot this Humenne to Kosice train passing Kalsa which had a dead CD (Czech) sleeper on the rear (the blue and white car), presumably being worked back to Kosice for servicing? I know it's not strictly an overnight service but the presence of the sleeping car gives me an excuse to include it :-)

8: On Wednesday 18th, my final day, another shot of the Slovakia as it enters Kosice's northern suburbs

9: And finally, crossing the Vah at Strecno, just east of Zilina, train R608, the 12:14 Kosice to Bratislava semi fast service carries the UZ sleeper from Kiev, and here it is.

The remainder of my pictures from last week are here: http://nick86235.smugmug.com/Trains/2015/Slovakia-2015/i-xKd94LG



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/15 14:35 by 86235.

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I give props to the UZ for, in light of everything, keeping Kiev-Bratislava and Kiev-Budapest connections alive.....

As for overnighters, central and eastern Europe still has a healthy amount of them, with additional trains in the summer.  We shall see what plays out farther west....

Thanks for sharing! Sleepers are my favorite trains!

Thanks Nick! So many old school sleeper trains still remaining in Slovakia!

McKey Wrote:
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> Thanks Nick! So many old school sleeper trains
> still remaining in Slovakia!

Indeed, and long may they remain, although cutbacks are happening. The third Czech Republic to Kosice overnight service, the Excelsior from Cheb, Karlovy Vary and Prague was withdrawn last December.

Nice picture & interesting commentary.

Thanks

Again, great pictures and a wonderful topic. Without wanting to sound churlish, however, doesn't your account of your trip (a cheap flight and a hire car) explain why sleepers are a dying breed. Twenty years ago we were spoiled for choice over which sleeper route to take to Italy for our regular visits from the UK, now it's down to Ryanair or something from LCY. It's not right!

spflow Wrote:
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> Twenty years ago we were spoiled for choice
> over which sleeper route to take to Italy for our
> regular visits from the UK, now it's down to
> Ryanair or something from LCY. It's not right!

Why not? Flying to somewhere like Bratislava in a matter of two hours is, I reckon, progress. If to get to Slovakia I had to ride the train then no sooner had I arrived in Kosice than I would have had to start my return. I also remember some less than stellar experiences on board overnight trains crossing Europe; a CIT charter train from Calais to Sestri Levante on the Ligurian Riviera in 1974 on which the 'food' trays were unceremoniously chucked into the compartment, my dad was not impressed. Never experienced that on Ryanair. I also recall travelling on the Oostende Wien Express back in 1985(?) and being woken numerous times en route as portions of the train were cut out, others added and all accompanied by jerks, jolts and shouts. The Venice Simplon Orient Express it was NOT.

As chs7-321 pointed out Central and Eastern Europe still has a fair network of overnight trains, whereas in Western Europe that network, such as it is, is getting thinner and thinner. Budget airlines exist almost everywhere in Europe (Wizz for example are Hungarian) so how does one explain the disparity? As I said in my opening paragraph I think it has much to do with the extension of the High Speed Rail network, it's the railways themselves that seek to ditch overnight trains. On commencement of TGV service between Paris and Barcelona SNCF and RENFE, without ceremony (or much notice) simply cancelled the Elipsos Trenhotel over the same route. Nothing to do with Ryanair. And last year DB took the pruning shears to their CNL operations, scaling them back quite significantly. And they had invested in new equipment, but even so it hasn't been enough to build a sustainable business.

In Eastern Europe high speed rail is much rarer, the fastest train between Bratislava and Kosice averages barely 55 mph, although in both the Czech Republic and Poland Pendolino tilting trains provide a modicum of high speed service. It is a moot point whether these trains do have a long term future, when the current stock is life expired will there be the will to replace it. I honestly don't know but as long as they run I will get up early (or stay up late) to photograph them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/15 11:06 by 86235.

Fortunately we do have Nordic countries again, swimming against the tide (or how would you say this in English, but you know what I mean). Overnight express services are still quite strong here, and of course they are slightly subsidized too. Like Nick points out, no true high speed rail here either that would have killed the night trains. And not everyone here wishes to take a dash on plane and prefer trains, or even slower method of transportation: ferries on Baltic Sea.

Back to subject: VR ordered last week 27 new double decked hotel level sleepers cars from Transtech for 90 million Euros. These have ship style cabins (several various types), bathrooms, electronics, etc. Only the cabins are quite limited in size but are very comfortable inside smooth riding sleeper cars and extremely good sound insulation all directions. Air conditioning, alarm and radio are standard too. Wifi is provided on 4G, so it will be both fast and reliable. These cars run 200 km/h, or are capable of it, since they have only 1000-1500 kilometers journey through the night, and running slower means that the time train enters station in the morning is "reasonably late". However, should the trains start late, there is no obstacle gaining time by running with 200 km/h behind Sr2 (LOK2000) or Sr3 (electric AC + double diesel Vectron, first is just arriving for testing).  I include just one small picture but you can find many more of the class Edm hotel cars and trains here: http://www.4rail.net/reference_finland_gallery2_coaches.php#vr_edm

I think much of the success of these cars is based also on the excellent service level of the trains and relatively small number of them running, there are only around 10 of these ~15-20 coach trains running through the night so occupancy rate is excellent.

86235 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As chs7-321 pointed out Central and Eastern
> Europe still has a fair network of overnight
> trains, whereas in Western Europe that network,
> such as it is, is getting thinner and thinner.
> Budget airlines exist almost everywhere in Europe
> (Wizz for example are Hungarian) so how does one
> explain the disparity? As I said in my opening
> paragraph I think it has much to do with the
> extension of the High Speed Rail network, it's the
> railways themselves that seek to ditch overnight
> trains. On commencement of TGV service between
> Paris and Barcelona SNCF and RENFE, without
> ceremony (or much notice) simply cancelled the
> Elipsos Trenhotel over the same route. Nothing to
> do with Ryanair. And last year DB took the pruning
> shears to their CNL operations, scaling them back
> quite significantly. And they had invested in new
> equipment, but even so it hasn't been enough to
> build a sustainable business.
>
> In Eastern Europe high speed rail is much rarer,
> the fastest train between Bratislava and Kosice
> averages barely 55 mph, although in both the Czech
> Republic and Poland Pendolino tilting trains
> provide a modicum of high speed service. It is a
> moot point whether these trains do have a long
> term future, when the current stock is life
> expired will there be the will to replace it. I
> honestly don't know but as long as they run I will
> get up early (or stay up late) to photograph them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/15 11:51 by McKey.

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Here in Britain the two Caledonian Sleepers are also to be re-equipped, with new cars built by CAF in Spain. But this is a highly political issue, given the Scots rejection of independence last year. It is also the case that we too don't really have true high speed services anywhere north of London, but having said that the number of sleeping car equipped trains which used to connect London with almost every part of the country 30 years ago, have been reduced to just three - the two Scottish trains and the Night Riviera to the Southwest England.

Interesting, would you have details of the new sleepers there? I'm interested in their technology interior layouts mainly. Since it is CAF building I bet I know what the bogie looks like ;)  (standard European)

McKey Wrote:
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> Interesting, would you have details of the new
> sleepers there?

Not yet. SERCO only take over the sleepers operations from April 1st. As for the bogies, standard European models do not, generally, fit the loading gauge envelope, they usually require a customisation. The bogies that Bombardier use on all the MUs they've built is a deriviative to a BREL design. Siemens had to tweak their design for the Desiro EMUs and DMUs



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/15 13:07 by 86235.

86235 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spflow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Twenty years ago we were spoiled for choice
> > over which sleeper route to take to Italy for
> our
> > regular visits from the UK, now it's down to
> > Ryanair or something from LCY. It's not right!
>
> Why not? Flying to somewhere like Bratislava in a
> matter of two hours is, I reckon, progress. If to
> get to Slovakia I had to ride the train then no
> sooner had I arrived in Kosice than I would have
> had to start my return. I also remember some less
> than stellar experiences on board overnight trains
> crossing Europe; a CIT charter train from Calais
> to Sestri Levante on the Ligurian Riviera in 1974
> on which the 'food' trays were unceremoniously
> chucked into the compartment, my dad was not
> impressed. Never experienced that on Ryanair. I
> also recall travelling on the Oostende Wien
> Express back in 1985(?) and being woken numerous
> times en route as portions of the train were cut
> out, others added and all accompanied by jerks,
> jolts and shouts. The Venice Simplon Orient
> Express it was NOT.
>
> As chs7-321 pointed out Central and Eastern
> Europe still has a fair network of overnight
> trains, whereas in Western Europe that network,
> such as it is, is getting thinner and thinner.
> Budget airlines exist almost everywhere in Europe
> (Wizz for example are Hungarian) so how does one
> explain the disparity? As I said in my opening
> paragraph I think it has much to do with the
> extension of the High Speed Rail network, it's the
> railways themselves that seek to ditch overnight
> trains. On commencement of TGV service between
> Paris and Barcelona SNCF and RENFE, without
> ceremony (or much notice) simply cancelled the
> Elipsos Trenhotel over the same route. Nothing to
> do with Ryanair. And last year DB took the pruning
> shears to their CNL operations, scaling them back
> quite significantly. And they had invested in new
> equipment, but even so it hasn't been enough to
> build a sustainable business.
>
> In Eastern Europe high speed rail is much rarer,
> the fastest train between Bratislava and Kosice
> averages barely 55 mph, although in both the Czech
> Republic and Poland Pendolino tilting trains
> provide a modicum of high speed service. It is a
> moot point whether these trains do have a long
> term future, when the current stock is life
> expired will there be the will to replace it. I
> honestly don't know but as long as they run I will
> get up early (or stay up late) to photograph them.

Look, I apologise for sounding critical, because of course I understand the irresistable economic logic which precludes sleepers in the face of competition from high speed day trains and cheap airlines. A passion for train travel is based on irrationality, as are most other enthusiasms, and seems to be easily challenged by the harsh facts of the real world. I would be the last person to argue for the general reintroduction of steam traction, much as I adore the experience of riding at speed behind a main line steam loco, because obviously the costs to the general community would be enormous, and quite unreasonable. I also recognise that the pleasure of Elipsos travel came at considerable cost, and was not easily accessible to most people. It's a bit like lamenting the demise of the transatlantic liners - wonderful for first class passengers, but a nightmare for those in steerage. Nonetheless, I still find myself wondering whether all this effortless rapid travel is a good thing, whatever the mode.  I guess it's a question similar to whether endless economic growth is desirable, let alone possible. Again It seems easy to query this from a position of relative affluence.

At the end of the day I suspect that we had a bit more fun as students 50 years ago, sitting up on overnight trains across Europe, than today's generation do checking in online with Easyjet. Perhaps I'm just being sentimental - the world has changed beyond recognition!

Thanks again for the pictures.

I must admit I don't have a very high nostalgia quotient in matters of transport. I certainly regard low cost airlines as generally being on the positive side of life's great ledger, even if some of the personalities involved are not. 

spflow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 86235 Wrote:
 And last year DB took the
> pruning
> > shears to their CNL operations, scaling them
> back
> > quite significantly. And they had invested in
> new
> > equipment, but even so it hasn't been enough to
> > build a sustainable business.
> >

>
> Look, I apologise for sounding critical, because
> of course I understand the irresistable economic
> logic which precludes sleepers in the face of
> competition from high speed day trains and cheap
> airlines. A passion for train travel is based on
> irrationality,


1) Last year's primary CNL cut, the Berlin-Paris sleeper, was based on ridiculous track access charges by the SNCF (who took no part in running the service other than providing the locomotive Strasburg/Metz-Paris).  Its ridership was good, and DB tried to make the numbers work, but, without SNCF's help, they couldn't.

2) I fail to see what it is so irrational in one's preference to leave the origin city in the evening, go to sleep and wake up at a normal hour, rather than waking up at 3:30 am for a trip to the airport.   If there is a choice, the latter, IMHO, is the irrational one......

chs7-321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Last year's primary CNL cut, the Berlin-Paris
> sleeper, was based on ridiculous track access
> charges by the SNCF (who took no part in running
> the service other than providing the locomotive
> Strasburg/Metz-Paris).  Its ridership was good,
> and DB tried to make the numbers work, but,
> without SNCF's help, they couldn't.

I have to say reading TR Europe that is not the impression given - yes Paris lost its CNL service but then so did Amsterdam and so did Copenhagen, and DB were citing annual losses of over €20million with no capital to pay for new equipment, which suggests that SNCF track access charges are not solely responsible.

chs7-321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I fail to see what it is so irrational in one's
> preference to leave the origin city in the
> evening, go to sleep and wake up at a normal hour,
> rather than waking up at 3:30 am for a trip to the
> airport.   If there is a choice, the latter,
> IMHO, is the irrational one......

That's very true, but only if your start point and end point happen to be the originating or destination city, and not one of the stops in the wee small hours. If its the latter I'm not sure that there is a whole lot of difference whether your 3:30 a.m start is to catch a flight or a train.

The other factor which hasn't been mentioned is cost. I'm planning another few days away by myself at the end of May, this time to the Czech Republic, and I did toy with travelling by train. Eurostar to Brussels, ICE onward to Koln and the City Nightline to Prague would have set me back about £400 return, in a shared sleeper. Ryanair on the other hand will fly me to Brno and back, with a reserved seat and priority boarding for £99, leaving Stansted at lunchtime and getting to Brno at 5 p.m. And flying gives me an extra day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/15 15:01 by 86235.

86235 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chs7-321 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Last year's primary CNL cut, the Berlin-Paris
> > sleeper, was based on ridiculous track access
> > charges by the SNCF (who took no part in
> running
> > the service other than providing the locomotive
> > Strasburg/Metz-Paris).  Its ridership was
> good,
> > and DB tried to make the numbers work, but,
> > without SNCF's help, they couldn't.
>
> I have to say reading TR Europe that is not the
> impression given - yes Paris lost its CNL service
> but then so did Amsterdam and so did Copenhagen,
> and DB were citing annual losses of over
> €20million with no capital to pay for new
> equipment, which suggests that SNCF track access
> charges are not solely responsible.

1) My insight into the Paris service comes from someone who works for the DB.  As the person is also a TO member, if they wish, they can chime in.....
2) Copenhagen had highly seasonal loads....decent in the summer, but very light in the winter.  I guess DB had to do an all or nothing deal here....
3) Amsterdam-Munich/Zurich is still there.  What was cutback to Oberhausen was Amsterdam-Copenhagen/Prague.....I am not entirely sure as to the story there. 


> chs7-321 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I fail to see what it is so irrational in one's
> > preference to leave the origin city in the
> > evening, go to sleep and wake up at a normal
> hour,
> > rather than waking up at 3:30 am for a trip to
> the
> > airport.   If there is a choice, the latter,
> > IMHO, is the irrational one......
>
> That's very true, but only if your start point and
> end point happen to be the originating or
> destination city, and not one of the stops in the
> wee small hours. If its the latter I'm not sure
> that there is a whole lot of difference whether
> your 3:30 a.m start is to catch a flight or a
> train.
>
> The other factor which hasn't been mentioned is
> cost. I'm planning another few days away by myself
> at the end of May, this time to the Czech
> Republic, and I did toy with travelling by train.
> Eurostar to Brussels, ICE onward to Koln and the
> City Nightline to Prague would have set me back
> about £400 return, in a shared sleeper. Ryanair
> on the other hand will fly me to Brno and back,
> with a reserved seat and priority boarding for
> £99, leaving Stansted at lunchtime and getting to
> Brno at 5 p.m. And flying gives me an extra day.

But the thing is, with distances involved, there is probably a decently timed daytime service available for those wee-hour destinations. 

Btw, supposedly the Moscow-Paris sleeper is getting retimed for morning arrivals in Paris and evening departures.  This will restore the Berlin-Paris night train option, but once a week till June, and 2-3 times a week after that.  We shall see what becomes of it.....