European Railroad Discussion > TGV Double Train Consists ???

i was watching "Why Planes Crash" on the Weather Channel last night and in one jet crash segment they made it a point that the French Airlines at the time were under pressure for ontime performance stating the stiff competition by High Speed Rail ... they cut to short video of a TGV High Speed Train ... it was 2 seperate trains coupled together ... the lead train consist was a 2 end power unit 8 double deck car train coupled to a conventional single level TGV consist trailing ... not being familiar with European Railroads is this a normal operation and if so why the 2 different train sets ...

ThankX for any info ...

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/15 07:05 by Out_Of_Service.

It's a normal operation. I would estimate that about half of the TGVs one sees on the go have two sets connected. Often, these two sets are going separate places, but originate at the same place, so they split off at a station en route. Other times, it's just to generate extra capacity on a busy train, like from Paris to the Côte d'Azur in summer.
Normally, they hitch up two TGVs of the same type in one train, though a TGV Réseau (the ordinary type) connected to a TGV Duplex (the double-decker type) is not unheard of, especially if one is going somewhere in the homeland of TGV Duplexes (the heavily populated and touristed southeast of France) and the other is going to somewhere else. Check out my photos of French adventures from a few weeks ago, you'll see plenty of double TGVs.

Tor in Eugene

Torisgod Wrote:
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> It's a normal operation. I would estimate that
> about half of the TGVs one sees on the go have two
> sets connected. Often, these two sets are going
> separate places, but originate at the same place,
> so they split off at a station en route. Other
> times, it's just to generate extra capacity on a
> busy train, like from Paris to the Côte d'Azur in
> summer.
> Normally, they hitch up two TGVs of the same type
> in one train, though a TGV Réseau (the ordinary
> type) connected to a TGV Duplex (the double-decker
> type) is not unheard of, especially if one is
> going somewhere in the homeland of TGV Duplexes
> (the heavily populated and touristed southeast of
> France) and the other is going to somewhere else.
> Check out my photos of French adventures from a
> few weeks ago, you'll see plenty of double TGVs.
>
> Tor in Eugene

thankX for the detailed explanation ... i live in south jersey ... grew up in Camden in the 50s and 60s ... when the city was viable lively and pretty much safe most of the time ... i lived along the P-RSL passenger double track main to the shore points ... my pop worked for the P-RSL ... back then the railroad specifically bought for the purpose of using their RDC Budd cars in a manner much as you described running multiple single unit RDC Budd cars as one train for 70 miles and they would split off at the various junctions along the Cape May route to the different shore towns and were joined together on their trip north and ran as one train back north ... the concept worked well until the AC Expressway (multi lane toll road) gave the automobile a quicker non stop drive to the shore ...

Amtrak doesn't use this concept instead relying on seperate trains ... there's only one route off the NEC that's electrified which is the Keystone Corridor to Harrisburg out of Philly ... as for diesel power trains on other corridors Amtrak still relys on seperate trains ... i'd like them to use the concept but they feel it's not feasible ...

Posted from Android

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
>
> Amtrak doesn't use this concept instead relying on
> seperate trains ... there's only one route off the
> NEC that's electrified which is the Keystone
> Corridor to Harrisburg out of Philly ... as for
> diesel power trains on other corridors Amtrak
> still relys on seperate trains ... i'd like them
> to use the concept but they feel it's not feasible
> ...
>
> Posted from Android


On a limited basis Amtrak does split trains like the NYC and Boston sections of the Lake Shore Limited and I think the Empire Builder splits too doesnt it?

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
> Amtrak doesn't use this concept instead relying on
> seperate trains ... there's only one route off the
> NEC that's electrified which is the Keystone
> Corridor to Harrisburg out of Philly ... as for
> diesel power trains on other corridors Amtrak
> still relys on seperate trains ... i'd like them
> to use the concept but they feel it's not feasible

I was under the impression that the FRA would not allow Amtrak to run the ACELA's coupled back to back. This would make sense on some of the more heavily traveled runs as Amtrak always has several train-sets in reserve. The FRA's attitude has always been just because it's works elsewhere doesn't mean it would work here.




> ...
>
> Posted from Android

3rd_Raton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I was under the impression that the FRA would not
> allow Amtrak to run the ACELA's coupled back to
> back. This would make sense on some of the more
> heavily traveled runs as Amtrak always has several
> train-sets in reserve. The FRA's attitude has
> always been just because it's works elsewhere
> doesn't mean it would work here.
>
>
>
>
> > ...
> >
> > Posted from Android
 I can't see how the TGV double trainset arrangement is any different from any other mu set up, which is used all over the world, including the US, although perhaps primarily in urban metro-style systems. The only difference is that the power in a TGV is concentrated on two cars out of ten, and the aerodynamic front ends give a distinctive impression when coupled together. Didn't the Americans invent the electric multiple unit?

Paul in UK

What an interesting discussion....

TGVs have always been notorious for their _maximized_safety_ , well above other standards. As a results few casualties exist in their history from 1981 till today. The whole structure of TGVs is built to withstand strong forces during crashes (which occur for example in collisions or when train drops from rails). There are several separate but integrated safety mechanisms, found on some other EMUs too.  Acela is actually NOT a TGV design if you look carefully, look at the bogies and how they are located under the train.

Don't think only Americans can design working safety mechanisms! French Alstom is _notorious_ for technically advanced solutions, they just also happen to be probably the worst salesmen on the whole World so their inventions and products are not generally known... (and were thrown out of California a few ears ago because France was part of Nazi Germany in WW2 out American friends there told). I wonder what the real reason was.

As to which TGV train type is coupled together with which is based _solely_ on economic and operational matters, nothing to do with technology as all TGVs can be coupled with one another. Economy has actually been the driving force last 2-3 years with perfectly good single level units being scrapped while the production line ramps up double decked units, TGV-Dasye (700 series) & TGV-2N2 (800 and 2700 series). 

spflow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3rd_Raton Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I was under the impression that the FRA would
> not
> > allow Amtrak to run the ACELA's coupled back to
> > back. This would make sense on some of the more
> > heavily traveled runs as Amtrak always has
> several
> > train-sets in reserve. The FRA's attitude has
> > always been just because it's works elsewhere
> > doesn't mean it would work here.
> >
> > >
> > > Posted from Android
>  I can't see how the TGV double trainset
> arrangement is any different from any other mu set
> up, which is used all over the world, including
> the US, although perhaps primarily in urban
> metro-style systems. The only difference is that
> the power in a TGV is concentrated on two cars out
> of ten, and the aerodynamic front ends give a
> distinctive impression when coupled together.
> Didn't the Americans invent the electric multiple
> unit?
>
> Paul in UK

I'll post three pictures of the TGVs online for everyone's enjoyment. These were taken a few years back by our friend Focalplane. In the pictures is a TGV-Hybrid / TGV-RéseauDuplex set (Réseau locos with Duplex generation trailers)(600 series) flying past in Southern France. 

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spflow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3rd_Raton Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I was under the impression that the FRA would
> not
> > allow Amtrak to run the ACELA's coupled back to
> > back. This would make sense on some of the more
> > heavily traveled runs as Amtrak always has
> several
> > train-sets in reserve. The FRA's attitude has
> > always been just because it's works elsewhere
> > doesn't mean it would work here.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Posted from Android
>  I can't see how the TGV double trainset
> arrangement is any different from any other mu set
> up, which is used all over the world, including
> the US, although perhaps primarily in urban
> metro-style systems. The only difference is that
> the power in a TGV is concentrated on two cars out
> of ten, and the aerodynamic front ends give a
> distinctive impression when coupled together.
> Didn't the Americans invent the electric multiple
> unit?
>
> Paul in UK

Paul i saw a TV segment a few years ago on the new TGVs which showed the traction motors on each truck assembly distributed throughout the train including the end power collection units ...

It is actually _not_ TGV, but AGV, also built by Alstom. TGV alsways has _two_ locomotives sandwiching mainly 8 trailers that are always articulated.

AGVs are in use at NTV in Italy today under brand name iTalo.  I included two pictures so you can see the stylish Ferrari red design. More will follow later to Italian RR Gallery.  Pictures by Ilkka and NTV.


Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spflow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 3rd_Raton Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > I was under the impression that the FRA would
> > not
> > > allow Amtrak to run the ACELA's coupled back
> to
> > > back. This would make sense on some of the
> more
> > > heavily traveled runs as Amtrak always has
> > several
> > > train-sets in reserve. The FRA's attitude has
> > > always been just because it's works elsewhere
> > > doesn't mean it would work here.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > Posted from Android
> >  I can't see how the TGV double trainset
> > arrangement is any different from any other mu
> set
> > up, which is used all over the world, including
> > the US, although perhaps primarily in urban
> > metro-style systems. The only difference is
> that
> > the power in a TGV is concentrated on two cars
> out
> > of ten, and the aerodynamic front ends give a
> > distinctive impression when coupled together.
> > Didn't the Americans invent the electric
> multiple
> > unit?
> >
> > Paul in UK
>
> Paul i saw a TV segment a few years ago on the new
> TGVs which showed the traction motors on each
> truck assembly distributed throughout the train
> including the end power collection units ...

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AGVs can also run in multiple. Top service speed allowed is 360 km/h (224 mph). Italy has built maybe 2000 kilometers of true high speed track for operators to use, which makes it one of the largest high speed countries in Europe.  

For economical mode operators outside Italy (which also has SNCF and possibly Renfe TGVs running) AGVs have not gained acceptance. The sale still always seems to go to TGVs or competition.

Below a Milan, Italy - Paris, France TGV-Réseau unit seen at Gare de Lyon, Paris. 500 series is TGV-Réseau for France while series 4500 is built for international service. Main difference are the train control and electrical systems, plus possibly pantographs (I don't know about the last).

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McKey Wrote:
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(and were thrown out of
> California a few ears ago because France was part
> of Nazi Germany in WW2 out American friends there
> told). 

Thank you for repeating this "Old Wives Tale" yet again....

The issue raised was that during WWII Alstom used slave labour in some of their factories. (Probably not their decision.)
And there were some in power here in California at the time who wanted Alstrom to makes amends for that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/15 10:48 by PHall.

True, many German occupied countries used slave labor. I read last summer a book: http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Paperclip-Intelligence-Program-Scientists/dp/0316221031

which describes the slave labor conditions and torturing humans that seemed to be all too common for the leading axis power. In addition to the main subject which is that U.S. and Soviet Union seemed to compete fiercely who gets the talents of the several hundred leading Nazi scientists (who in turn tried to hide their true past the best they could).

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McKey Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> (and were thrown out of
> > California a few ears ago because France was
> part
> > of Nazi Germany in WW2 out American friends
> there
> > told). 
>
> Thank you for repeating this "Old Wives Tale" yet
> again....
>
> The issue raised was that during WWII Alstom used
> slave labour in some of their factories. (Probably
> not their decision.)
> And there were some in power here in California at
> the time who wanted Alstrom to makes amends for
> that.

Watching many hundred TGV pictures at 4rail.net I noticed a curious feature: although my network and I've seen hundreds of "TGV mixed pairs" of two different types of trains connected together, very few that kind of pairs have made to the picture galleries!

I was busy during the day, so here finally comes the operational view: many pictures are taken during the rush hours, when high speed lines are at their capacity. As double decked trains carry almost twice as many people, they are preferred during these hours by operator to lessen this severe capacity issue. Single level units on the other hand can be seen arriving to Paris after the worst rush hours are over during the day, like near midnight (and other off peak hours too). There is also an economical point to this: cost per seat (trains access charges are paid by axle count, which is the same with double deckers as with single level trailers) is lower on newer types with double decked trailers. To take this even further SNCF also has a budget TGV service called OuiGo ("WeGo") which packs about 700 people to units that normally carry slightly over 500 passengers. Again the capacity issues are lessened and access charged divided by more passengers.

Another trick of adding capacity to high speed lines is to harmonize line speeds and increase them. Used line speed now South and East of Paris seem to be 320 km/h / 199 mph, meaning that _all _units, including the inspection train must run at this speed. Now, all TGV types except one can make this: the oldest of the heard, TGV-PSE, can run only 300 km/h / 186 mph, which means if used they act as bottleneck to others. I think this must be the true reason why they are being scrapped, besides being just single level and less productive.

Do these thoughts make sense to you from operational and economical point of view? After all SNCF must always both carry its own costs and be able to pay access charges in return to being able to use lines in France. With raised access charges I think we are about to see even more changes to more cost conscious operations mode within a few years.  

Then some more pics:
1) Doubled double decked units during rush hour at Gare de Lyon. The unit closest to camera is one of the rare TGV-Hybrids.

2) How things looked back in 2002...

3) Where few of us walk on platforms, because these double length units are 401 meters / 1300 feet long!

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spflow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't the Americans invent the electric multiple
> unit?
>
> Paul in UK

Yep, one Frank J Sprague on what became the Chicago El. His invention persuaded the Central London Railway to dispense with heavy locomotives on their Bank to Shepherds Bush tube line and acquire EMUs instead.

86235 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spflow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Didn't the Americans invent the electric
> multiple
> > unit?
> >
> > Paul in UK
>
> Yep, one Frank J Sprague on what became the
> Chicago El. His invention persuaded the Central
> London Railway to dispense with heavy locomotives
> on their Bank to Shepherds Bush tube line and
> acquire EMUs instead.

Thanks, I thought so! And of course the Chicago influence on the London Underground was intense - hence the continued use today of the terms "cars" and trucks" as against "coaches" and "bogies" everywhere else in the UK (and I guess, the non-US English speaking world). I wonder, by the way, what terms do they use in the Antipodes or South Africa?

Out-of-Service, while you may have confused the AGV with TGV, your are right in a sense. Not only is there a general move away in all modern designs from separate power cars to having distributed power throughout the train, I believe even the original TGV and derivatives such as Eurostar have the coach bogie adjacent to the power car also motored, giving twelve powered axles in each train set.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/15 00:53 by spflow.

Well, actually the old designs have this feature, while anything built in last 20 years is truly modular meaning locomotive+pure trailer section (trailer meaning car/coach)+locomotive. Could we think the newer design is here because it makes it easy to swap end modules when necessary? And helps with servicing as coaches don't need to go through both their and locomotive/power service program?

spflow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe even the
> original TGV and derivatives such as Eurostar have
> the coach bogie adjacent to the power car also
> motored, giving twelve powered axles in each train
> set.

There is a definite move towards true lightweight EMU designs. But especially in super high speed segments I'm sure a place still exists for TGV like designs. The locomotive there acts as a very useful ram when ever everything goes wrong. I don't think we can rely on automatic train control solely, as several accidents have proved. There really needs to be a second line of defense too.

Below three pictures of units which have powered bogies next to locomotive ends _and_ have been extremely successful protecting both passengers and train personnel when the ram has been needed. This still seems to happen with a certain regularity with the immense masses of people using these trains. And of course, just these trains are used where there is a risk of another collision incident.  

1-2) Rebuilt and unrebuilt TGV-PSE, this is the original TGV design.

3) Eurostar Capitals (the longer one) unit, or actually two half units with a locomotive + 9 trailers each. This unit is disguised for SNCF TGV service, thus TGV sticker and vinyls on where yellow on Eurostar units is located.  

In both cases the powered first axle in coaches is quite obvious.

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thankX for all the info fellas ... i haven`t been fortunate myself to have been out of the US to ride these true high speed railway train sets ... i'm in the last 1/4 of my earthly existence so perhaps before i expire to ashes i hoping i might be around long enough to be fortunate to enjoy the experience and thrill of riding these true high speed rail travel ...

Posted from Android

You are fortunate, you will live to see 400 km/h / 250 mph trains to take over super high speed segment, Maglevs running 500 km/h+ / 310 mph+  and beyond becoming more widespread once the health concerns dissipate, there might even be first Hyperloops built. Hyperloop type vehicle is an 'ancient invention' initially aimed for space lift/cannon but of course can be used for traveling on Earth too. Enjoy what the future will bring to you! 

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thankX for all the info fellas ... i haven`t been
> fortunate myself to have been out of the US to
> ride these true high speed railway train sets ...
> i'm in the last 1/4 of my earthly existence so
> perhaps before i expire to ashes i hoping i might
> be around long enough to be fortunate to enjoy the
> experience and thrill of riding these true high
> speed rail travel ...
>
> Posted from Android

Below one of the Shanghai Maglev pictures from 4rail.net. This vehicle could easily run 500 km/h even now, but the line is too short for time being. And of course Maglev can't be used if capacity needs are those of larger cities. Also, it needs a lot of maintenance, some of my acquaintances have reported very rough high speed traveling on this Maglev, quite different from French "flying on the ground" with TGV! 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/15 02:56 by McKey.

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McKey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are fortunate, you will live to see 400 km/h /
> 250 mph trains to take over super high speed
> segment, Maglevs running 500 km/h+ / 310 mph+ 
> and beyond becoming more widespread once the
> health concerns dissipate, there might even be
> first Hyperloops built. Hyperloop type vehicle is
> an 'ancient invention' initially aimed for space
> lift/cannon but of course can be used for
> traveling on Earth too. Enjoy what the future will
> bring to you! 
>
> Out_Of_Service Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > thankX for all the info fellas ... i haven`t
> been
> > fortunate myself to have been out of the US to
> > ride these true high speed railway train sets
> ...
> > i'm in the last 1/4 of my earthly existence so
> > perhaps before i expire to ashes i hoping i
> might
> > be around long enough to be fortunate to enjoy
> the
> > experience and thrill of riding these true high
> > speed rail travel ...
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> Below one of the Shanghai Maglev pictures from
> 4rail.net. This vehicle could easily run 500 km/h
> even now, but the line is too short for time
> being. And of course Maglev can't be used if
> capacity needs are those of larger cities. Also,
> it needs a lot of maintenance, some of my
> acquaintances have reported very rough high speed
> traveling on this Maglev, quite different from
> French "flying on the ground" with TGV! 

i also saw this last week on Modern Marvels with the "Fastest and Slowest" theme ... it's a 30 some mile system to/from the airport ... pretty cool ...