European Railroad Discussion > Gatwick Express New Toy

A pair of 387/2s out on their second day of testing on the Brighton mainline this afternoon. Built by Bombardier at Derby they are another version of the very successful Electrostar multi voltage EMU. They will replace the class 442 EMUs which were cascaded from South West Trains to Gatwick Express service, not entirely successfully. Southern will retain seven class 442s units, for peak hour services between the south coast and London. The remainder, so the rumour mill says, will be de-motored and work as push pull loco hauled passenger cars on non-electrified Trans Pennine Express services behind the newly delivered second batch of DRS class 68s. We'll have to wait and see whether this is an informed rumour or kite flying :-)

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Interesting news and neat looking train! And the old stock woudl be interesting to see trailing class 68s.

As is happening with some other countries, is the use of British loading gauge changing, both gauge and vehicles using it getting wider and higher?

Not really, some enhancements have been made to accommodate 9'6" boxes on normal flats on routes from Southampton and Felixstowe, but that's about all.

Made a number of business trips to England 1978-1997.  Many times I rode the train (first class) from Gatwick to Victoria Station and reverse.  Always enjoyed these rides.
ALLEN
 

OK, thanks! Obviously we are not about to see TRAXXion or Vectrons outside the HS lines in the future then. If even there. I wonder if there are technical obstacles why standard rolling stock from Central and Northern Europe could not be used on these?

86235 Wrote:
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> Not really, some enhancements have been made to
> accommodate 9'6" boxes on normal flats on routes
> from Southampton and Felixstowe, but that's about
> all.

Never say never but I suspect as things stand at the moment neither Bombardier nor Siemens are going to shrink their standard models for the prospect of a handful of sales, why would they?

If what's called the 'electric spine' becomes a reality and access to both Southampton and Felixstowe are electrified at 25kV, 50hz then maybe, on the other hand Vossloh's class 88 may already have the market sewn up.

I see the new EMU's are numbered in the 300 series. From my knowledge of the TOPS system that would make them OHL AC units. Are there panto-graphs in the panto-graph wells or are they just 3rd rail units for now? When I was last in London back in 2012 I remember seeing some 300 series EMU's that strangely enough did not have panto-graphs.

Speaking of Gatwick trains, back during a 2007 visit to London I remember taking a train to Victoria station made up of class 460 EMU's. I thought those units were neat with their sloping ends. I guess they're all gone now?

Sounds logical, any definite word out yet when Stadler Rail is going to deliver the first class 88 for tests?

86235 Wrote:
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> Never say never but I suspect as things stand at
> the moment neither Bombardier nor Siemens are
> going to shrink their standard models for the
> prospect of a handful of sales, why would they?
>
> If what's called the 'electric spine' becomes a
> reality and access to both Southampton and
> Felixstowe are electrified at 25kV, 50hz then
> maybe, on the other hand Vossloh's class 88 may
> already have the market sewn up.

3rd_Raton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see the new EMU's are numbered in the 300
> series. From my knowledge of the TOPS system that
> would make them OHL AC units. Are there
> panto-graphs in the panto-graph wells or are they
> just 3rd rail units for now? When I was last in
> London back in 2012 I remember seeing some 300
> series EMU's that strangely enough did not have
> panto-graphs.
>
> Speaking of Gatwick trains, back during a 2007
> visit to London I remember taking a train to
> Victoria station made up of class 460 EMU's. I
> thought those units were neat with their sloping
> ends. I guess they're all gone now?

All new Southern EMUs are in the 3 series, whether they are equipped with pantographs or not. These 387s are as it happens although in Gatwick Express service they won't need them. The 460s have had their Darth Vader noses removed and have been reclassified as 458s and now work for South West Trains with other Alsthom built units. Southern and Thameslink is almost exclusively Bombardier 377s and 387s.

3rd_Raton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see the new EMU's are numbered in the 300
> series. From my knowledge of the TOPS system that
> would make them OHL AC units. Are there
> panto-graphs in the panto-graph wells or are they
> just 3rd rail units for now? When I was last in
> London back in 2012 I remember seeing some 300
> series EMU's that strangely enough did not have
> panto-graphs.
>
The pantograph confusion arises out of the crazy world of rail privatisation in the UK. Bescause the idea was to grant rather short franchises to operating companies, of frequently less than ten years duration, the operators could not be expected to invest in rolling stock with a much longer life. Hence the arrangement whereby the fleets of trains are owned by leasing companies (now all subsidiaries of banks) , who will let operators use their trains for a fat fee. There is thus a large premium on trains which can be leased to any operator for as wide a range of services as possible. Hence most new emus will have some dual voltage (and current-collection system) capabilty built in, but it means that it is very difficult to have trains designed specifically and appropriately for a particular service. We have a "one size fits all" policy imposed upon us, to the considerable detriment to passengers and railfans alike.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/15 07:39 by spflow.

spflow Wrote:
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> The pantograph confusion arises out of the crazy
> world of rail privatisation in the UK.

Not wholly true, the first EMUs which had third rail capability, but were classed alongside AC units were the 319s, built and conceived many years before privatisation. All today's EMUs are capable of both 750v DC and 25kV AC operation, and that's more to do with the evolution of control systems in the electronic age than privatisation. Today the fleet of Thameslink 387/1s speeds between Bedford and Brighton, changing current and dropping or raising the pantograph at City Thameslink whilst Southern's pantograph equipped 377s are used on the South Croydon to Milton Keynes route, switching power whilst underway between Shepherds Bush and Willesden. The 387s are destined for a relatively short reign on Thameslink, they, together with other Thameslink 377s and 319s will migrate elsewhere once the Siemens 700 class, which are currently being delivered to Three Bridges, enter service. They were built as stop gap whilst Siemens got their act together. I think the 377s and 387s will migrate to the Thames Valley, whilst the 319s are destined for London Midland and Northern.

I ride on the 377/387 fleet almost everyday too and from work and I think they are nice trains, infinitely superior to the awful superannuated rubbish which emanated from the Eastleigh drawing office and which plagued the third rail lines for 40 years. The downside is the awful Fainsa seat (Fainsa are a Spanish company which specialises in train seats) in the 377/6, 377/7 and 387/1 and (now) 387/2. Ok they are 2+2 but the seat position is very upright, it may be good for the posture but not for slumping after work. The earlier 377s are much better in that regard although I have found that I can snooze on a 387, so all is not lost :-) and they are fast - 110 mph (176 kph) - but only on 25kV catenary equipped lines. In the old days that sort of speed would cause Southern traffic managers to have an attack of the vapours.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/15 13:21 by 86235.

86235 Wrote:>
> Not wholly true, the first EMUs which had third
> rail capability, but were classed alongside AC
> units were the 319s, built and conceived many
> years before privatisation......

I was wondering why you didn't consider the 313's the first, especially as some were later de-AC'd.

Best, SZ

Edited to add:   Although officially limited to 90 by the signal spacing -- they were trialed at 100 -- the 4REP's certainly hit 3 digits on occasions, and the Wessex  units were officially good for 100.  The South Western Division managers and personnel were no strangers to speed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/15 18:29 by Steinzeit.

You're quite right about the 313s, they pre date the 319s by over 10 years.

On the speed question I was thinking of a quote by Alfred Raworth, the Southern Railway's electrical engineer who said at the inauguration of electrification to Portsmouth in 1937 that he could build an EMU which would reach 100 mph but that Herbert Walker (the General Manager) wouldn't allow him to. Raworth was only just satisfied with the Portsmouth EMUs because, at 900 HP for a four car unit, they only had enough power to maintain schedules, but not regain time if late.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/15 05:27 by 86235.

More trains for Gatwick Express. I have lost count of how much stack this franchise has got through. They must hold the UK record! Chris uk.

73s and Mk 2s, 460s,442s and now 387s. And that's if you don't count the pre-GatEx Rapid City Link 4VEGs.