European Railroad Discussion > German head-on collision close to the Austrian border

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35530538

150 injuries and several deaths.

newtonville150 Wrote:
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> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35530538
>
> 150 injuries and several deaths.

More pictures here -

frontal collision: Eight dead and more than 100 injured in train accident near Bad Aibling

Discussion about the accident at Drehscheibe-online.de

If you're using Google Chrome, as I do, after the page finishes loading, right click and select "Translate to English".
 

One wonders how this can happen on a line that is apparently equipped with some form of modern automatic train stop. Both drivers are reported to be amongst the 9 (so far) fatalities. Local speed limit is reported as being 100km/h on a bend in wooded area. They would have seen each other at the very last moment.

Terrible news. Isn't it ususally so that either the train control system is turned off or something has been fixed on the tracks so that it was left configured faulty? So the train control system is working in these cases. Not knowing yet what the investigation will find out. 

newtonville150 Wrote:
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> One wonders how this can happen on a line that is
> apparently equipped with some form of modern
> automatic train stop. Both drivers are reported to
> be amongst the 9 (so far) fatalities. Local speed
> limit is reported as being 100km/h on a bend in
> wooded area. They would have seen each other at
> the very last moment.

More here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3438376/Train-crash-southern-Germany-causes-injuries.html

Does this actually mean that on this section no automatic train control was in use, but one or other of the older systems?

"The accident took place on a single-track rail, and state-owned operators Deutsche Bahn are now investigating whether the cause of the incident was a signal failure."

stevelv Wrote:
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> More
> here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3438
> 376/Train-crash-southern-Germany-causes-injuries.h
> tml

John,

No idea on how you came to the conclusion that no ATS was in use; no speculations in face of that tragedy, please...

This is what was confirmed by the German authorities during a press conference held by the authorities early afternoon today:

• Cause for that accident is unknown; Federal and State authorities are investigating
• This part of the right of way was equipped with PZB90 (punktuelle Zugbeeinflussung), a state of the art automatic train control for branch lines, which was especially developed to avoid such disasters
• Deutsche Bahn (DB) as owner of the right of way inspected the PZB90 system on this line last week and didn't find any problems, according to their chief representative for the State of Bavaria
• Two of the three black-boxes of the trains involved have been found, secured and are under investigation; the third one is being searched for

Until the black-boxes are analyzed, anything is, as said, speculation. More facts (and less speculation) can be found on the pages of the Bavarian Broadcasting Service (Bayerischer Rundfunk) http://www.br.de/nachrichten/oberbayern/inhalt/zug-entgleist-bad-aibling-100.html . And the Süddeutsche Zeitung published an overview of the security system installed: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/bad-aibling-wie-die-strecke-technisch-gesichert-ist-1.2855826

My good thoughts are with the many victims and my special thanks goes to all the rescue worker from Upper Bavaria and Austria who managed to be at that geographically difficult location in such a short time to help the injured in this professional way they did.

E111

McKey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does this actually mean that on this section no
> automatic train control was in use, but one or
> other of the older systems?
>
> "The accident took place on a single-track rail,
> and state-owned operators Deutsche Bahn are
> now investigating whether the cause of the
> incident was a signal failure."
>
> stevelv Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > More
> >
> here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3438
>
> >
> 376/Train-crash-southern-Germany-causes-injuries.h
>
> > tml



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/16 07:33 by E111.

In Nordic there still are many places with no modern train control, might be something from almost 100 years ago. Works well as long as traffic directors are alert. I suppose Germany has much better ATC even on single track sections?

OK, lets let the investigators do their work.

E111 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John,
>
> No idea on how you came to the conclusion that no
> ATS was in use; no speculations in face of that
> tragedy, please...

With ATC in the system and two operators in each train, one driver and one assistant, there is no way this could happen without sabatoge.  I suspect Muslim terrorists.  Both signals had to be green and that's impossible without some help.  If I were the DB I would be putting out an alert to all divisions to watch for anything unusual about signal indications.  Interviews with regular passengers said their train usually held at the station waiting for the other train to pass.  This time it did not wait.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/16 18:40 by jfrank39.

jfrank39 Wrote:
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> With ATC in the system and two operators in each
> train, one driver and one assistant, there is no
> way this could happen without sabatoge.  I
> suspect Muslim terrorists.  Both signals had to
> be green and that's impossible without some
> help. .......

I suspect you're just plain stupid.

SZ

Two drivers per train....wht did I miss.

And in the history of railroading, there have been plenty of missed stops and missed signals with two people in the cab.  Don't jump to wild conclusions until there is evidence for such.

How long should the investigation take?  In the US the NTSB will take about a year.

McKey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Nordic there still are many places with no
> modern train control, might be something from
> almost 100 years ago. Works well as long as
> traffic directors are alert. I suppose Germany has
> much better ATC even on single track sections?
>
> OK, lets let the investigators do their work.
>
> E111 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > John,
> >
> > No idea on how you came to the conclusion that
> no
> > ATS was in use; no speculations in face of that
> > tragedy, please...
>
>

• 
  >
  >

Bob Wilcox
Charlottesville, VA
My Flickr Shots

radar Wrote:
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> And in the history of railroading, there have been
> plenty of missed stops and missed signals with two
> people in the cab.  Don't jump to wild
> conclusions until there is evidence for such.

Quite right, and even more so there is a strong argument that too many people is a major distraction - there was a famous derailment of a high speed train at Piacenza in Italy a few years ago, where the  subsequent investigation found  that four people in the cab distracted the driver from observing a speed restriction.  There ahve been numerous head on collisons on single track railways in Gerrmany, Switzerland and other European nations, all of them the result of human error or occasional technical faults. We know that elaborate fail-safe systems will increase the chance of a failure, albeit a "safe" one, but then the problem is a human one of how to manage the immediate halt that follows. We have had countless examples of safety systems being turned off or overridden, sometimes with good reason, at other times out of laziness.  Only a few months ago we had a steam train in the UK pass a danger signal on the main line because the TPWS system had been disconnected.

As for terrorists of any kind, well please get a life!  First of all, why Muslims? We have had much worse terrorism in Europe, not only Germany, from either extreme right wing groups or Irish Nationalists, all so-called "Christians". Some of this has been directed at trains, most notably in Italy. To my knowledge, in recent decades there has never been a rail accident of this kind anywhere in the world that has been due to political activities. To think that US foreign policy could ever be shaped by this kind of mindless ignorance is far more frightening than any terrorists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/16 05:05 by spflow.

jfrank39 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With ATC in the system and two operators in each
> train, one driver and one assistant, there is no
> way this could happen without sabatoge.  I
> suspect Muslim terrorists.  Both signals had to
> be green and that's impossible without some
> help.  If I were the DB I would be putting out an
> alert to all divisions to watch for anything
> unusual about signal indications.  Interviews
> with regular passengers said their train usually
> held at the station waiting for the other train to
> pass.  This time it did not wait.

Gee Frank, you could work for the CIA with this line of thinking. I take it you're a trump fan too.

Posted from Android

SP4360 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jfrank39 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > With ATC in the system and two operators in
> each
> > train, one driver and one assistant, there is
> no
> > way this could happen without sabatoge.  I
> > suspect Muslim terrorists.  Both signals had
> to
> > be green and that's impossible without some
> > help.  If I were the DB I would be putting out
> an
> > alert to all divisions to watch for anything
> > unusual about signal indications.  Interviews
> > with regular passengers said their train
> usually
> > held at the station waiting for the other train
> to
> > pass.  This time it did not wait.
>
> Gee Frank, you could work for the CIA with this
> line of thinking.
>
> Posted from Android

I always thought that the CIA had some form of "intelligence", if not "as we would know it".  This is just making up a story to fit a pre-formed judgement.

spflow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SP4360 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > jfrank39 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > With ATC in the system and two operators in
> > each
> > > train, one driver and one assistant, there is
> > no
> > > way this could happen without sabatoge.  I
> > > suspect Muslim terrorists.  Both signals had
> > to
> > > be green and that's impossible without some
> > > help.  If I were the DB I would be putting
> out
> > an
> > > alert to all divisions to watch for anything
> > > unusual about signal indications. 
> Interviews
> > > with regular passengers said their train
> > usually
> > > held at the station waiting for the other
> train
> > to
> > > pass.  This time it did not wait.
> >
> > Gee Frank, you could work for the CIA with this
> > line of thinking.
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> I always thought that the CIA had some form of
> "intelligence", if not "as we would know it". 
> This is just making up a story to fit a pre-formed
> judgement.

That would be sarcasm in my response.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/16 12:53 by SP4360.

Even for a high speed crash, these vehicles didn't look very crash worthy. As for the terrorism aspect, we all know Germany has let thousands of so called "migrants' into their country un vetted. Look what happened on New Year's Eve. Doubtful in this case and speculation solves nothing but I don't see anything wrong with the a previous poster at least raising it for consideration. And if he is a Trump supporter, as an American, that's his right. Why do so many people here have to berate others who don't hold their same political views? Many of us think Mr. Trump has the right idea when it comes to illegal immigration and keeping these people out until they can be accurately vetted. 

Thanks for all the sarcastic replies and insults.  I just reported the facts as I got them from the media.  If any of it is wrong just blame them, not me.  As for getting a life, you people might look into that.  I am already busy.  I really don't have time for uninformed foamers.

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even for a high speed crash, these vehicles didn't
> look very crash worthy. As for the terrorism
> aspect, we all know Germany has let thousands of
> so called "migrants' into their country un vetted.
> Look what happened on New Year's Eve. Doubtful in
> this case and speculation solves nothing but I
> don't see anything wrong with the a previous
> poster at least raising it for consideration. And
> if he is a Trump supporter, as an American, that's
> his right. Why do so many people here have to
> berate others who don't hold their same political
> views? Many of us think Mr. Trump has the right
> idea when it comes to illegal immigration and
> keeping these people out until they can be
> accurately vetted. 

Well, I'd love to comment on your post, but it wouldn't last too long here. Carry on.

Posted from Android