Railroaders' Nostalgia > Locomotive firemen in the '70's, '80's and '90's

This is something I think about from time to time mostly because my grandfather started his railroad employment as a UP fireman in Nebraska, and was later promoted to engineer when he moved out to California.

I understand, for the most part, the workforce reductions during the early and mid 1960's (reportedly over 18,000 firemen positions were vacated), yet it was a long time before firemen positions were completely eliminated on many railroads because railroads needed a certain number of fireman, per division, that could be promoted to engineer.

But a couple of things I don't understand (still). At least on SP is appears that before 1985 any helper run required a fireman if one were available, but if the fireman's board was exhausted then the helper ran as engineer/brakeman only. The confusing part is what about main line trains? Some ran with a fireman, some did not. Again I'm guessing that per labor agreements a certain percentage of main line trains had to have a promotable fireman.

Any help with understanding how this worked would be greatly appreciated.

Of course corrections to my guesses above are welcome!



Allen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/14 18:55 by bradleymckay.

On the SP, all of the engineers hired until the late 70s at least, had fireman's seniority. This meant that if they couldn't hold an engineers position in their seniority district, they could work as a fireman.
The firemen's and trainmen's agreements were modified to use a brakeman instead of a fireman on helpers.
G

On the Santa Fe, every engineer job had a Fireman's turn (or position) attached to it, occupied or not. When times were good, and all the promoted men were running, the Fireman's pool turns ran vacant, and the Engineer had no Fireman that trip. If things slowed down, and they cut the number of Engineers needed in the pool, they bumped back onto any vacant Fireman turn. In early 1982, The number of Engineers in the pool was cut almost in half, and those cut out bumped back Firing. Every train west out of Emporia had a Fireman on it. When it came time for me to be bumped out, I had to bump onto a 3rd shift Newton yard job firing, and two days later got bumped off that with no place to go but home for two weeks. All that changed in 1985, when no more Firemen were hired, and engineers were trained from Trainmen. Pre-'85 men with Fireman seniority could use it if they had too, and I still had my Fireman's seniority when I retired in 2010. By attrition, only a few men lift on my old roster now who started as Firemen. Another three or four years, and they will all be gone.

ExSPCondr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The firemen's and trainmen's agreements were
> modified to use a brakeman instead of a fireman on
> helpers.
> G


Correct,George. The "Halloween" agreement allowed for "look out" service, which, to this day, I thought was ridiculous. Engine work belonged to Engine service people, not Train service folks.


V

SLOCONDR

Boy, where to start. This is what was done on the SP. (Hey, my memory isn't the best, please correct me where I make a mistake.)

Up until the 60s, every train had a fireman, a hold over from steam engines. Well, the carriers urged the voters to abolish Fireman ( I think it was 64 and it was Prop 17?) Still can't figure out why the public was allowed to vote, most of them had no idea what rails did. Well it passed and the cuts started. First of all, this prop established "Red Tag Veto" jobs, depending on the traffic for a fireman. It also had Fireman on all passenger, helpers and work trains. In SLO there were two "Red Tag Veto" jobs. The afternoon goat and one space in the Wat Jct pool. Part of this was a huge fine if a space left town mty or was runaround. It had to have a body in it from engine service.

Well, along came 68-69 and the SP was running out of people to promote from Fireman to Engineer. Well, they put out the word and a lot of people came back that were let go years before. Some of the Fireman that were allowed to stay were called "C-6" men. You had to call one of them before you could let a job go blank. The SP started to hire Fireman. The Western/Coast really needed them because of the commutes. Oregon still had a "Full Crew" law so they had plenty for a bit. Then they busted that law but then they and other divisions were still running out of Fireman & Engineers.

Part of the agreement stated that after you were promoted, you could not be cut off. Also, the Coast refused to sign away their hostling jobs or their firemans rights. Only division on the system to do it. The first test was when some Bakersfield guys were cut off. The company would not let them bump as a fireman, so they sat at home, drawing a 5 day switch engine pay. Somebody in the City finally woke up and put them back on.

As far as giving up your Firemans rights, a lot of us refused to sign that paper in the 70s. Well, here comes the 90s. The SP is trying to say an engineer could not bump as a fireman if he was cut back. They had given up their Firemans rights. In this way they could force a man to another terminal anywhere on the system. Like a lot of people, some of us kept that unsigned paper where we had written "Refused" across the face of it. I found mine, took it down to the RFE and it hit the fan. Years later, they tried it again and it bit them again. I knew two hogheads that stayed home and collected the firemans earnings of a run they would have bumped on. That only lasted a few days and the SP dropped it.

Another thing about the C-6 men, they were guaranteed a certain amount because of Prop 17 and a lot of them took clerks jobs, etc. elsewhere in the company. Those were the first people to be hired back into engine service. On the Coast it was RR McCarthy. He took a clerks job for years and was the first back.

I know I have missed something somewhere. Let me know.



Nudge



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/14 08:59 by spnudge.

ddg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the Santa Fe, every engineer job had a
> Fireman's turn (or position) attached to it,
> occupied or not. When times were good, and all the
> promoted men were running, the Fireman's pool
> turns ran vacant, and the Engineer had no Fireman
> that trip. If things slowed down, and they cut the
> number of Engineers needed in the pool, they
> bumped back onto any vacant Fireman turn. In early
> 1982, The number of Engineers in the pool was cut
> almost in half, and those cut out bumped back
> Firing. Every train west out of Emporia had a
> Fireman on it. When it came time for me to be
> bumped out, I had to bump onto a 3rd shift Newton
> yard job firing, and two days later got bumped off
> that with no place to go but home for two weeks.
> All that changed in 1985, when no more Firemen
> were hired, and engineers were trained from
> Trainmen. Pre-'85 men with Fireman seniority could
> use it if they had too, and I still had my
> Fireman's seniority when I retired in 2010. By
> attrition, only a few men lift on my old roster
> now who started as Firemen. Another three or four
> years, and they will all be gone.

Dennis, that's an excellent explanation, thank you.

Now one question: before the recessions of the early 1980's was Santa Fe hiring people off the street strictly to work as Firemen in Emporia?

TIA

Allen

bradleymckay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ddg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > On the Santa Fe, every engineer job had a
> > Fireman's turn (or position) attached to it,
> > occupied or not. When times were good, and all
> the
> > promoted men were running, the Fireman's pool
> > turns ran vacant, and the Engineer had no
> Fireman
> > that trip. If things slowed down, and they cut
> the
> > number of Engineers needed in the pool, they
> > bumped back onto any vacant Fireman turn. In
> early
> > 1982, The number of Engineers in the pool was
> cut
> > almost in half, and those cut out bumped back
> > Firing. Every train west out of Emporia had a
> > Fireman on it. When it came time for me to be
> > bumped out, I had to bump onto a 3rd shift
> Newton
> > yard job firing, and two days later got bumped
> off
> > that with no place to go but home for two
> weeks.
> > All that changed in 1985, when no more Firemen
> > were hired, and engineers were trained from
> > Trainmen. Pre-'85 men with Fireman seniority
> could
> > use it if they had too, and I still had my
> > Fireman's seniority when I retired in 2010. By
> > attrition, only a few men lift on my old roster
> > now who started as Firemen. Another three or
> four
> > years, and they will all be gone.
>
> Dennis, that's an excellent explanation, thank
> you.
>
> Now one question: before the recessions of the
> early 1980's was Santa Fe hiring people off the
> street strictly to work as Firemen in Emporia?
>
> TIA
>
> Allen


At that time, you had to have a couple of years with the company to be considered for a craft transfer. I don't know of any who came in off the street pre-'85. Several transferred from the mechanical dept. and there were several Brakemen who switched over too. I spend nine years in the Topeka Shops before I transferred, and I pestered the employment people for almost two years before they would let me transfer. And, like mentioned above, most of the steam era Firemen got whacked by the "feather bedding" issue in '64, but some at Emporia were recalled back within weeks or months when they ran out of Engineers.

I remember when I hired out on the Mop in 72, that the Mop was hiring people for road service as the Russian grain deal hit the Mop hard and many men had been forced to hostling jobs, and then suddenly found themselves handling long heavy grain trains, and some with little or no road experience. Seems like the carriers and UTU and had signed some kind of manning agreement in late 71 or early 72, and group of 18-21 olds were being hired for six months or so of road and yard training along with classroom training at Little Rock. The last people who had any firing or hostling rights, would have hired out before 1985. Between 85 and the present people who hired out, started out as trainman and then went into engine service as classroom space manpower needs arose. Seem like there was what known as the 282 Award from the mid 60's which I think allow carriers to cut a brakeman off certain jobs on locals and yard job,but I am not entirely sure of that.

back in the late 1960s when the firemen were done away with they formed the 282 award that a percentage of all jobs would have a fireman until done away thru addrition which happened by the early 8s

Gary Wamhoff
Laramie, WY

ExSPCondr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the SP, all of the engineers hired until the
> late 70s at least, had fireman's seniority. This
> meant that if they couldn't hold an engineers
> position in their seniority district, they could
> work as a fireman.
> The firemen's and trainmen's agreements were
> modified to use a brakeman instead of a fireman on
> helpers.
> G
I had a '77 brakeman's date, '78 conductor's date, '79 fireman's date, and a '80 engineer's date...WHEW!
I was one of the last SP fireman in Los Angeles that kept his fireman's date, which leads me in to the following story...
Back in the early 80's things got real slow here in LA, and there were fireman on every pool job (coast and valley) as well as all the locals out at GEMCO. After I was promoted to engineer (3/30/80) I, as well as half the San Joaquin engineers in LA were cut back to fireman...I worked out of GEMCO because it was close to home. Not only that, but many times as a fireman I would get cut loose early by the engineer...working 2 or 3 hours...and getting paid for 12. We would also work a deal out where since I was promoted engineer, I would let the regular engineer go home early and finish up the day for him...It was a great time to be a "young runner". This slow down lasted almost 5 years...but dark clouds appeared on the horizon. The Trainmaster out at GEMCO at the time named Schnoblen, hated having firemen on his jobs, and he let it be known that our days might be numbered. So one day as we came into the yard office, there was a message for me as well as the rest of the fireman to call the crew dispatcher upon tie up...WTF!?! Now, to understand this underhanded move by the trainmaster... the SP San Joaquin Division seniority used to stretch from LA to Fresno...including Bakersfield. Well, Mr. Schnoblen finally found a way he could get rid of the fireman on his locals. He had all of us augmented AS ENGINEERS up to Fresno, where there was an engineer shortage. Diabolical! I was pissed! But wait! Lets think about this...Since I am now set up as an ENGINEER...I can work ANY San Joaquin job I can hold...as an ENGINEER. Hmmmm? Just so happened there was one San Joaquin yard job out of Taylor Yard...The Burbank/Glendale switcher that went "NO BID" for the engineer spot. I couldn't have worked it as a fireman, but now, as an ENGINEER augmented to Fresno, I can take it on the "no bid". So I called the crew dispatcher and had them put me on that job as the ENGINEER...which they did. But wait...it gets better! Since we were pulled off our jobs at Gemco, back in those days we got a 100 mile deadhead(8 hrs pay) from GEMCO to LA. And since we were augmented from LA to Fresno, we also got the deadhead mileage from LA to Fresno. I can't remember the mileage, but it was a substantial sum. And because I was able to take that yard job in LA, I still claimed and got paid all this extra deadhead money without leaving the comfort of my home...HA! In your face Mr. Schnoblen!
Those were good times, indeed...

I also hired out in '78 with a yardman and brakeman seniority number getting a fireman date in '79 and an engineer date in '80. In LA "I believe" there was an agreement that would not allow furloughing a promoted engineer thus as said above all jobs had a fireman position on it but were not required to be filled. This allowed a place to go for engineers with no place to go as it would be decades before an agreement would allow engineers to bid back and forth from train service to engine service as they do now. Sometime in the late eighties (I thhink?) Santa Fe furloughed ten engineers for a few months and ended up paying every one of the back pay as it was not supposed to have happened. When I retired in '09 I too had a yardman, brakeman, conductor, fireman and engineer seniority number. Those were the days.
JB

They tried the same thing on the Coast. Business was slow and most of the engineers were cut back to firing. Well, 7th St, the mother board, thought they would try the same thing. They arbitrarily assigned Bob Swain and myself to fireman's jobs on the commutes. (we were the two senior fireman in SLO. Trouble was, when we walked in the door, we were engineers because men that were junior to us were set up running in the City.

As local chairman of the BLE in SLO, I told them that this was in violation of the agreement provisions for Engineers on the SP. The crew dispatcher (he was a jerk because they would not let him go firing when they started hiring again) said that was tough sh%#. It was a Friday so, Bob and I had to mark up as engineers and we both had live bumps. He bumped on the afternoon south city switcher and I bumped on the afternoon Quint St. switcher out of Bayshore. We both worked the one shift and when we tied up, we were told to DH back to SLO. It was because we were set up as engineers again in SLO.

We were paid a 252 mile DH up, the 8 hr shift and a 252 back to SLO. Labor relation had a fit on Monday but there was nothing they could do. They refused to pay the DH back so I sent it to the board. About a year later, I got a note from timekeeping saying that the claim would be paid on my next check.

You see, back then, the engineers board in SLO was not guaranteed by the carrier so it was run by the BLE. It was the unions job to keep the pools and extra lists in balance with the traffic. That Sat.,we needed about 3 or 4 more engineers added to the extra board. As Local Chairman I set up 3 Fireman to the engineers extra list and added a space on the west end pool.

The crew dispatcher in the City went nuts. He called me screaming and yelling saying I couldn't do that. I explained to him that I had to right to do it and was obligated by contract with the SP to provide enough man power in engine service for the terminal in SLO.

I ran into the guy that was in labor relations at the time of all of this in a Safety Meeting in Mt. Shasta many years later. We all introduced ourselves (I knew who he was, we had met at a meeting in The City way back then) and when I went to sit down, this person said for everyone to hear, "Your the LC that caused all those deadheads to be paid back in the early 70s." I agreed it was me, and said to him, you should have read the agreement.


Nudge



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/14 17:49 by spnudge.

Another minor little issue was pay. An Engineer without a Fireman made about $12.00 a trip more. Some actually resented having a Fireman along, even if there was trouble or work enroute, and the Fireman worked his butt off to care of it. I fired on many trips where we got over the road quicker and with less delay because I was there. I remember trips where I had to blow the horn from the 2nd unit, double- head the rear of the consist because of defective MU cables, do all the ground work setting out or picking up units enroute, taking care of HVGR on trailing units, draining failed units on the fly in cold weather, replacing burnd out headlights, being the only one on the engine that could stay awake, running half the trip for the Engineer, etc. Well worth the $12 pay reduction to have me along, but some still resented it.

We had them too. Some would sell their mother in order to go without a Fireman. It started out as $4.00 a hundred, I think, to work without a fireman. I was called one morning to go to LA from SLO. I had a space number (no fireman) and the train called behind me, the peddler had C. K. Thorne as the engineer and had Allen Gray as his fireman. I had just put my grip up on the engine and went back inside to get my orders from the conductor. The RH Foremen was putting ice and water in the lead unitso I had a minute or two. Thorne was crying to the crew dispatcher about having a fireman. I walked over and told the crew to trade my space number with Charlie's fireman and that was that. No harm, no foul, no claim. Allen & I got on the engine and I flipped a coin. I got heads so I ran to Santa Barbara and he ran the rest of the way to LA. Thorne died on the law at Santa Sue after 14 hours.


Nudge

that serves Mortimer just right !! Is Mortimer still living ?

I have heard 2 stories. One, that he died a few years ago and the other, that he was in a home.

I think the only "old head" thats left is Bob McEntire. But then again, as No. 1 said at the BBQ one year when I asked him about the old runners, "Old heads? We are the old heads now."

Nudge

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have heard 2 stories. One, that he died a few
> years ago and the other, that he was in a home.
>
> I think the only "old head" thats left is Bob
> McEntire. But then again, as No. 1 said at the BBQ
> one year when I asked him about the old runners,
> "Old heads? We are the old heads now."
>
> Nudge

Think I found the info on C.K. Thorne:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=106961785


"Snuffy" Horne is still alive as far as I know.


Allen

mopacrr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember when I hired out on the Mop in 72, that
> the Mop was hiring people for road service as the
> Russian grain deal hit the Mop hard and many men
> had been forced to hostling jobs, and then
> suddenly found themselves handling long heavy
> grain trains, and some with little or no road
> experience. Seems like the carriers and UTU and
> had signed some kind of manning agreement in late
> 71 or early 72, and group of 18-21 olds were being
> hired for six months or so of road and yard
> training along with classroom training at Little
> Rock. The last people who had any firing or
> hostling rights, would have hired out before 1985.
> Between 85 and the present people who hired out,
> started out as trainman and then went into engine
> service as classroom space manpower needs arose.
> Seem like there was what known as the 282 Award
> from the mid 60's which I think allow carriers to
> cut a brakeman off certain jobs on locals and yard
> job,but I am not entirely sure of that.

There was one place on the UP System in the "MP Upper Lines" St. Louis Engineer (and Firemen) seniority rosters where EVEN post-1985 employees who had hired out as switchmen/brakemen/conductors and transferred to hogheads were "forever protected" at least as Firemaen in what was known as "Sidebar Letter One" up there. Also known as the "once an engineer, forever an engineer deal." I left that district during my boomer years and transferred into the NLRK/PBLF Hub before the UP/SP Merger (tho still have some good friends up there...said tho how many of them are "no longer with us"). But I'm not sure that Sidebar Letter One survived the UP/SP Merger. And it is of little interest to my buddies that I came up with, as I'm retired and some of them are (or dead), but it was a good way of protecting younger/low-seniority employees, and especially that group of us who came up at a time of a severe engineer shortage and for those of us who'd have had to travel maybe 500 or a thousand miles to exercise trainmen seniority, it was really nice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/14 17:17 by Red.

What about CLay McBride ? Duchesi ? Togni ?

ddg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another minor little issue was pay. An Engineer
> without a Fireman made about $12.00 a trip more.
> Some actually resented having a Fireman along,
> even if there was trouble or work enroute, and the
> Fireman worked his butt off to care of it. I fired
> on many trips where we got over the road quicker
> and with less delay because I was there. I
> remember trips where I had to blow the horn from
> the 2nd unit, double- head the rear of the consist
> because of defective MU cables, do all the ground
> work setting out or picking up units enroute,
> taking care of HVGR on trailing units, draining
> failed units on the fly in cold weather, replacing
> burnd out headlights, being the only one on the
> engine that could stay awake, running half the
> trip for the Engineer, etc. Well worth the $12 pay
> reduction to have me along, but some still
> resented it.

Well, as you know, this is known as the "Screw the Unborn Children mentality" in labor circles. Need I say more? You've known them, I've known them, we don't have to put up with it anymore but it still goes on as new issues arise. "Just as long as I get mine and screw the unboard children." And yes, I've heard as a younger man older men SCREAM this--I just tried to stay out of their way and pretend that I agreed with them--so as not to be known as a troublemaker.

You cannot imagine what I an my younger friends said of these older guys, however: "We look forward with GLEE to the day when we OUTNUMBER them, and they are POWERLESS." And that day has long since came and went.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/14 17:20 by Red.