Railroaders' Nostalgia > Where Were You When.......

Next Thursday, October 2, marks the 35th anniversary of the fateful AMTRAK No. 4's accident at Lawrence, Kansas. I wouldn't have thought about it except santafe199's recent post http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/list.php?18 mentioned it along with another post of his from last year http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?18,3268526,3268528#msg-3268528>; Some things just stick with you like where you were when President Kennedy was assassinated or the attack on the Twin Towers, etc. I will not go into the details of the accident as they are covered in the above posts. Because of a pressing need of engineers on the Santa Fe they had added evening classes at the Engineer Training Center in Topeka. I was one of the instructors on the evening shift along with Max. Max and I both were from the Middle Division as were the Engineer and Fireman on No 4. As to seniority, Max followed Engineer Graham, No 4's engineer, and I was just 3 slots ahead of the fireman. I had worked with Graham some in both freight and passenger service. Anyway, Max had known Graham since 1941 or before and I had known him since 1962.

Upon coming to work around 3pm October 2, 1979 I learned of the accident that had occurred just about 20 miles to the east of Topeka. During breaks between classes and during meal time, Max just kept saying over and over that he couldn't understand why Graham had missed slowing for the 30 or 35 mph curve even though it had been 5 years since he had been across that territory. I was wondering about the cause also. Over the next few days some other details emerged.

The permanent 30 or 35 speed sign for eastbound movement had been removed to allow repair of the track and had not been replaced at the time of the accident. This next item differs from what santafe199 had heard. We were informed the Chief Dispatcher told Graham when he was going on duty at Newton that they would have a Pilot for them to be picked up at Emporia. Graham reportedly stated he didn't need any pilot as he knew the territory very well. So the request for the pilot was cancelled. Whose version is correct? I don't know. Perhaps even the fireman was not a part of the conversation. It may be that only the Chief Dispatcher and Graham know for sure what was or was not said. Knowing Graham, I can kinda imagine in his somewhat gruff voice saying he didn't need any pilot. Perhaps there was some pride involved. On the other side of the coin, was the Chief Dispatcher attempting to cover his back side by reporting a pilot was offered? I also see where the inert ATS inductor located about a mile ahead of the curve and/or the ATS equipment on the locomotive was probably malfunctioning.

We are only talking about less than a minute of time as to having an accident or not. It would only have taken a few seconds to have reduced the speed from the reported 78 mph to the 30 or 35 speed of the curve. The train may not have derailed even at a somewhat higher speed above what was posted.

What do I think was the primary cause? It's approximately 6:10 am, just before daylight, which is the hardest time for me to be really attentive. I know the permanent speed sign will be coming up and it will give me ample time to reduce my speed for the curve. BUT NO SIGN. There's the curve. We're turning over......

Max, I know you are gone now and I imagine Huck Graham is also but I think the preceding paragraph indicates the real reason for the accident. It could have occurred even if a pilot had been on board. He may have been watching for the sign as well.

After the accident the engineer retired. I think ddg mentioned in one of the other threads the fireman, after recovering, returned to work. Who lost his position over this accident? The Trainmaster based in Topeka who had jurisdiction over this territory. Why? For not insuring the permanent speed sign was replaced after the track work was completed. This seems to indicate others have come to the same conclusion that I have as to the primary cause. However I do not agree with who the company held responsible. I would think the Roadmaster or his supervisor should have been canned rather than the Trainmaster. I just don't see how that Trainmaster would have had an opportunity to see if that speed sign was up or not. Just my thought.

There's always something good that comes out of tragedies but I haven't been able to find what it is from this one.

Mark Cole
Temple, Tx

I'm new to Trainorders.com and don't know the protocol but am posting this on "Railroaders' Nostalgia" board as that is where the threads are about the accident. I would think though that it should be posted on "Nostalgia & History". Can someone supply me the "rules" I should be following?

Impossible to reduce speed from 78 to 35 "in a few seconds". Not even in your personal car.

KskidinTx Wrote:
> I'm new to Trainorders.com and don't know the protocol...

You're perfectly fine posting this on RRer's Nostalgia! Even bad nostalgia is still nostalgia...

I would not be surprised in the least if your version of the pilot/no pilot story is true. I was just relaying what was a prevailing discussion topic from those days. I only met Huck once, but was just a 'sideline youngster' who knew enough to keep quiet as he & veteran train dispatcher Ron Coppock had an easy-going conversation.

I'm positive there are some details nobody will EVER completely know. As I stated previously, there were so many us on both the Middle & Eastern Divisions who took this catastrophe very hard...

Lance

Well, your comment got me curious about the time factor on reducing speed from 78 to 35 mph, on a passenger train or personal vehicle. Just went out in my personal car and made a test. I reduced my speed from 78 to 30 mph in 4 SECONDS. Would like to try it on a passenger train but don't have the opportunity to do so. From my past experience operating passenger trains, which is some, but not a whole lot, I do think one could make a full service brake application allowing the locomotive brakes to also apply and start seeing a reduction of speed within 10 seconds. Then within another 20 seconds the speed would be down to 35 mph with a total elapsed time of 30 seconds or less. If an emergency application was made everything would occur even faster.

I'm sure several other TO members could give better estimations on this than I can. What do you guys think?

Mark

I can't remember what the ATSF system standard for the distance where permanent speed restriction signs were posted. Three to four thousand feet I think, which should have been enough to pinch her down.

The old standard, which would have been applicable Oct 2, 1979, was 2500 feet. This was changed several years later to 1 mile in advance.

Mark

KskidinTx Wrote:
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> The old standard, which would have been applicable
> Oct 2, 1979, was 2500 feet. This was changed
> several years later to 1 mile in advance.
>
> Mark


The Southern Pacific's standard was two miles in advance of a slow order the reduced speed sign was displayed.

Coming under I-70 should have been a major wake-up call, and a good place to start normal braking, with or without the speed boards.

Posted from Android

I was in the daylight hoghead class at Topeka when the wreck happened. I remember well seeing that particular #3 stopped at the depot from my room at the Holiday Inn; this was the first time for that train via Topeka as only nos. 15-16 had run on the line before. Also remember seeing scrap gons with passenger car parts heading thru town awhile later. Sad for all concerned...

Sounds like you were one of my instructors (rules?) as I was in the summer '79 afternoon Topeka class from LA, I think maybe the last afternoon class. There were nine of us from LA. Todays youngsters would be hard pressed to handle the continuous six week classes we had to put in.
JB

dcfbalcoS1 Wrote:
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> Impossible to reduce speed from 78 to 35 "in a few
> seconds". Not even in your personal car.


The author of the thread has mentioned his qualifications
on the handling of a train. Mind sharing yours?