Railroaders' Nostalgia > SP Coast Division Railroader Photos at HSJ - HELP!

I've long maintained that People are the best part of railroading. Thus, when Ken Middlebrook, Curator of Collections at History San Jose, posted some old photos of SP Coast Division enginemen in Railroaders' Nostalgia last fall in an attempt to learn their identities, I was hooked from the get-go. It also helped that these men (long ago) preceded me in running San Francisco Commute engines.

What I've done is to set up a website to host the identification effort (address below). There are hundreds of circa 1900-1970 photos in HSJ's  Ernie Kiesel Collection of Southern Pacific Photographs. Though Coast hogheads and their locomotives predominate, many of the photos show railroaders in other crafts, as well as officers. Until about 40 years ago, many (most?) decorated the walls of San Francisco's 7th St. Diesel Shop, and presumably Mission Bay Roundhouse before that. Only a minority of the people in the photos have been identified.

A representative sampling of 25 photos went online yesterday. Our primary aim at this point is to raise awareness and interest in the collection before the bulk of it goes online later this summer. There are plenty of blanks to fill in just in the initial group alone.

Ken and I are hoping that you folks will take a look to see if you recognize anyone. We are especially interested in biographic data and stories about them.

You SP fans are valuable to us in the hunt, even if you were not  employees. Maybe you've run across things in books, magazines and journals, or have something in your personal collections that might help?

Should you have any questions after checking out the photos, please post them on this thread.

Kiesel Collection website:  http://wx4.org/sp_employees/kiesel/spcoast.html

- E.O. "Ed" Gibson


Below is an as yet uncatalogued photo of Ernie and Fireman E.J. Sullivan on the head end of the Sad Sam at San Luis Obispo. Anyone know either of them?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/15 13:31 by hogheaded.

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Very interesting website. I recognized about 8 names in the rosters but the photos are all far before my time. There was one old timer I did know slightly, engineer Bill May. I think he is listed in the old Coast seniority roster as W. P. May with an engineer's seniority date of 12-25-1946. Odd that he and others should have a seniority date of Christmas Day, but then my own date of hire was January 1, also a holiday.  

Bill May was certainly ready to retire when I met him in 1979. He was the engineer on the afternoon passenger yard job, switching the commutes at the depot in San Francisco. He was a very pleasant guy and handled a switch engine with grace and familiarity. If you wanted to bring a smile to his face you only had to asked him about switching with steam. He said he always much preferred steam and would always miss those days. He probably had some stories to tell, but my contact with him was always brief.  

Westbound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very interesting website. I recognized about 8
> names in the rosters but the photos are all far
> before my time. There was one old timer I did know
> slightly, engineer Bill May. I think he is listed
> in the old Coast seniority roster as W. P. May
> with an engineer's seniority date of 12-25-1946.
> Odd that he and others should have a seniority
> date of Christmas Day, but then my own date of
> hire was January 1, also a holiday.  
>
> Bill May was certainly ready to retire when I met
> him in 1979. He was the engineer on the afternoon
> passenger yard job, switching the commutes at the
> depot in San Francisco. He was a very pleasant guy
> and handled a switch engine with grace and
> familiarity. If you wanted to bring a smile to his
> face you only had to asked him about switching
> with steam. He said he always much preferred steam
> and would always miss those days. He probably had
> some stories to tell, but my contact with him was
> always brief.  

Thanks for your comments about Bill May , particularly your description of him! I remember watching the crew switching Townsend, though I don't remember May in particular.  May would shove cars towards the bumper and the foreman would spot the cut by big-holing the conductor's valve.

Hopefully a photo of him will turn up, maybe outside of the collection. I designed the collection index to accomodate the photos, stories and biographies of ALL Coast railroaders, not just ones that turn up in the collection. I'll enter your info there. Should anyone have a photo of him, I'll place it in the index, as well.
EO

Seniority rosters and timebooks with rosters have always been a source of interest to me. Although I was a Los Angeles Division engineman
I did have a brief detour to the Coast Division in late 1962 after I was furloughed in L.A.
Checking with the chief clerk in the Master Mechanics office at Taylor Roundhouse, he told me that the Coast Division needed loaner firemen.
 I obtained a pass to ride the coast mail, No. 91 from LAUPT to San Francisco the next night. At San Jose the engine crew that had brought the train from San Luis Obispo
would ride the cushions on into the City. While thus engaged in deadheading, the engineer and I struck up a conversation. I told him
that I was 'loaning out' to the Coast division. He asked me if I had a place to stay in the City and, of course, I  said that I hadn't. When we arrived he took me to the
crew dispatchers window in the 7th St. yard office and introduced me to the clerk. After getting squared away with the clerk he then showed me where my
home in San Francisco would be: the Renton Hotel. This place served as a place for the commute crews to 'flop' between runs while laying over in the City.
I won't here take up more space here with my experiences at The Renton, but as the engineer departed I asked him his name. Denny Moore is what he said. I
note a R.F.Moore with a 10-1-41 engineers date is the only Moore on the Kiesel website timebook seniority roster. I wonder if these Moore's were/are
the same.  I was very appreciative of Mr. Moore's help in getting started there.

I was soon assigned to a midnight yard engine at the depot at San Jose. There I had the pleasure of working with Vince Allen, 8-25-1945 engineers date. We would make up
the morning commute trains and when all was in order, repair to an all night cafe for a leisurely breakfast before returning to the depot to finish up the shift. Next stop
was Lompoc. I was awarded the White Hills local by bid but was too 'green' to know that in addition to being awarded the job, you had to 'report' for it as well. When I
showed up the first day there was also an extra fireman on the job since I hadn't 'marked-up' for it. The engineer, whose name I cannot reliably recall, didn't know quite
what to do so to be safe he kept both of us that first day. I have no idea if I go paid for that day; probably not since it was my mistake. My recall is that he was of Portuguese extraction which seems to have been quite common for the Coast men that worked around SLO.

A couple of other observations. My experience on the SP is that engineer classes consisted of about 8-12 individuals hence we see, at most that many with the same
'date'. On the Ernie Kiesel website we see a whopping 30 individuals with a common engineers date of 9-22-1951. One reason for this is that at the time seniority
rules were different than they are today in that if a junior man was actually used as an engineer prior to those above him on the roster, that act would thereby establish
the 'dates' for all those individuals thus run-around by the junior man performing service. In this case possibly Mr. Williams was used before the 29 men above
him hence Mr Beaulieu and the next 29 people forever enjoyed a 'date' that Mr. Williams had made for them. Nothing unfair or out of order about this. Today on most
roads seniority is determined by either a lottery or pulling numbers from a hat to establish forever the pecking order among the brothers in the craft.

Some names worthy of note; D.M.Wolf was a Los Angeles Div. engineer and traded his seniority to the Coast division. Notice his firemen 'dates' are out of sequence
with those above and below his position. Trading seniority rules on the SP during my time there required that when two engineers desired to trade, if the company
agreed there were compelling reasons for the trade, such as health of the employee or a member of their family as an example, the trade would go forward with
each employee accepting the seniority date's of the junior employee. In this manner neither employee could gain seniority as a result of the trade. This was not always
the case. A prime example of this abuse occurred on a trade between two engineers one of which was considerably younger, age wise, than his trading partner. The result
of this was that in a short time the younger man soon found himself in the rarefied air at the top of  the seniority roster; a place he enjoyed for many many years while
his replacement trading partner on the former roster soon retired. The brothers were not amused by these high jinks hence the agreement rules
were changed. More names: R.O.Craig, (last name on engineers roster 2-7-1957) and R.S.Craig, 9-7-1950. Are these gentlemen any relation to the Ray Craig
that I had the pleasure of knowing when he came through the SP's simulator in 1971-73. Ray later went on to Amtrak and retired a few years ago. Nice guy.
Also Lance Proudfit, Road Foreman of Engines at SLO and Agge (sp?) Jess, another RFE at SLO.

Thanks for posting these, as I said these have always been interesting to me and as you said, people are the best part of railroading.

Charlie
 

Great stuff, Charlie! Your reminiscences are exactly the name-filled commentary that I'm looking for, above and beyond photo identification. I think that I need to adjust the website so that such efforts can be fully displayed, rather than merely in out of context bits-and-pieces spread-out all-over.

Re trading seniority: Even after the younger-man's-date rule took effect, there was often a fair bit of coin involved in such trades. Boy, I can imagine the horse-trading that must have occurred back then, when you could both sell your spot and keep your seniority date...

Thanks,
EO



 

I just re-read the excellent 1985 book "PRUNE COUNTRY RAILROADING - Steel Trails To San Jose" by WP engineer Norman W. Holmes. It contains many photos and a number taken by long-retired SP engineer Dean C. Hill. Mr. Hill took photos in and around San Jose, primarily of SP steam and had a good eye for scenic views. I met him only once, after he had retired, and had no idea that he had been quite the photographer. I'm wondering if some of his photographs have been published in other books. 

Westbound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just re-read the excellent 1985 book "PRUNE
> COUNTRY RAILROADING - Steel Trails To San Jose"
> by WP engineer Norman W. Holmes. It contains many
> photos and a number taken by long-retired SP
> engineer Dean C. Hill. Mr. Hill took photos in and
> around San Jose, primarily of SP steam and had a
> good eye for scenic views. I met him only once,
> after he had retired, and had no idea that he had
> been quite the photographer. I'm wondering if some
> of his photographs have been published in other
> books. 

This must to be same D.C. Hill whose nickname on the railroad was "disconnected". 

The 1956 Fireman's Roster has quite a few guys that ended up in SLO working as engineers at one time or another:

Ed Rosa, Larry Manthie, Burl Bray, Walter Togni, Bob McCarthy, Vince Pando, Don Lessi, and Tom Ware.


Allen
 

Oh the hazards of working in a small town, you can't get away with anything, or at least everybody knows!
Larry Manthie's middle name was Otto, so thats what everybody called him.
Ed Rosa got fired for submitting a false accident report after a derailment when the tapes showed him speeding.
Weren't Walt Togni and Mc Carthy both married to Valerie at different times?  I won't mention a third engineer.
McCarthy's initials were RR, so he was Roto Rooter.
Calling DC Hill "Disconnected" would have been a compliment!  He was on the Westbound peddler and hit a stopped Eastbound in the siding at Santa Margarita so hard it tipped over two trilevels about eight deep in the stopped train.  On a pool trip to LA he tore the grab irons off the caboose of the train he met, and the crew covered it up.  His last hurrah was getting four units and seven cars by a red flag after running over two torpedoes and a yellow flag two miles before.  After he got back to work, he was restricted to yard service in San Jose.

Vince Pando was a lot fun to work with.  Great guy.  He worked in SLO and the SF - SJ.  Part time substitute teacher.  Last I heard he was still riding the waves as a competitive Masters Surfer.  

Sphogger

sphogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince Pando was a lot fun to work with.  Great
> guy.  He worked in SLO and the SF - SJ.  Part
> time substitute teacher.  Last I heard he was
> still riding the waves as a competitive Masters
> Surfer.  
>
> Sphogger

Yep George, Vince had a surfboard strapped to his station wagon roof the day that he retired, which must have been more than 15 years ago. Like Dean Hill, he was a bit of a Nervous Nellie at the controls, but both were indeed great guys.

EO

hogheaded Wrote:

>
> Yep George, Vince had a surfboard strapped to his
> station wagon roof the day that he retired, which
> must have been more than 15 years ago. Like Dean
> Hill, he was a bit of a Nervous Nellie at the
> controls, but both were indeed great guys.
>
> EO

Seller Nugent has mentioned several times over the years that Vince's nickname was "Nervene".   There is also a "Pando's Junkyard" toward the old west switch at Cuesta.  Believe that happened when he was working a helper on a westbound.


Allen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/15 12:01 by bradleymckay.

To expand a bit on cewherry's post, I'm not familiar with an engineer named Denny Moore, however there was one known as "Dinty" Mohr.  I never knew him, but I think he retired off the Del Monte in April '71.  I'm not familiar with an R.O. Craig, but I did know R.S. Craig fairly well.  He passed away before he could retire and I don't believe he was related to Ray Craig.  The RFE in San Luis Obispo you mention is Augie Jess.  He used to fire for Chet Chamberlain on #98 and #75 back in the mid 60s.  During the summer, we'd ride our bikes to the station in Palo Alto to meet them when they came through.  #75's dwell time was longer because of mail, so we'd usually get invited up in the cab.

As for the Renton Hotel, that must have been before my time as a layover for the the commute crews in San Francisco.  When I started working, there was a bunk room connected to the change room at 7th Street where the guys would go to catch up on lost sleep.  It was affectionately called the Blue Room.  I didn't go in there too often, but one night I had just finished an afternoon yard job and stood to get back out in the morning for time and a half.  Instead of going all the way back to San Jose for the night, where I lived, I chose to spend the night in the Blue Room.  A couple hours in, something bit me and my mouth swelled up.  I wound up laying off sick and missing time and a half.  The swelling was down by morning and there were no ill effects, but I never went back in the Blue Room.  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/15 17:47 by CPCoyote.

I checked with another source CPCoyote, I think you are right.
A. "Dinty" Mohr.  Popular guy, number one in rhe 60's 
4-29-17 fireman, 8-12-25 engineer.  Retired when the Del Monte 
was pulled off, originally hired out firing on the Ocean Shore.

sphogger



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/15 15:51 by sphogger.

sphogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I checked with another source CPCoyote, I think
> you are right.
> A. "Dinty" Mohr.  Popular guy, number one in rhe
> 60's 
> 4-29-17 fireman, 8-12-25 engineer.  Retired when
> the Del Monte 
> was pulled off, orignally hired out firing on the
> Ocean Shore.
>
You guys are probably correct about "Dinty". I never asked him how to spell his last name and If he
was as considerate to others as he was to this 18 year old newbie fireman 'loaner' then I can see
why you say "Popular guy". Thanks for the insight.

Charlie

I fired for Dinty Mohr when he was on 76-99.
Image 16 is R.K. "Bob" Kennedy.
Image 18 is Ernie Welter.  Ernie never lived to retire.  I was firing for him in pool 1 when he passed away at home.

Dean Hill originally had a 1944 firing date but he had a hang up about wanting to be a cop.  So he gave up his firing date and hired out as a SP cop.
After they assigned him to checking car seals midnite at Bayshore he discovered that being a cop didn't have all the romance he envisioned so he rehired as a fireman with a much later seniority date.

Ken Bruce  Fireman 11/15/45   Engr 4/20/55  Retired 6/30/87



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/15 09:15 by Exespee.

CPCoyote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Instead of going all the way
> back to San Jose for the night, where I lived, I
> chose to spend the night in the Blue Room.  A
> couple hours in, something bit me and my mouth
> swelled up.  I wound up laying off sick and
> missing time and a half.  The swelling was down
> by morning and there were no ill effects, but I
> never went back in the Blue Room.  

Mike, remember the same thing later happened to Bill Koerlin at 5th Street - bit by spider - a brown recluse, I think - which put him in the emergency room. I recall that he was sleeping in the trainmen's bunk room next door, because he thought that the beds were more comfortable. That'll teach a guy not to cross craft lines (-:

EO

I want to emphasize that your comments thus far are as valuable as the identification process itself. These will go into the Biographical Index, which I hope will become an extensive historical and genealogical reference reference that complements the Kiesel photos, as time goes on. As I place your words on the website, I' may be PM'ing you to clarify details.

I am still in the process of putting out the word to various on-and-offline groups, individuals, organizations. Please pass the word to someone that you know. The Internet is a big place, as it turns out.

Regards,
EO


Below, three wrecks (at least) are well-documented in the collection, but not yet on the website.  One is the fairly well-known boiler explosion that killed four crew-members north of Salinas in 1941. The first photo shows what I believe is a collision at Guadalupe in about 1953. The second one show the aftermath of what may have been a fatal grade crossing collision involving a feed truck somewhere in the Salinas Valley in the early 1930's. I haven't had a chance to check it against the ICC accidents database yet. Anyone have info on the latter two accidents? I note from a previous TO thread that Don Titus was not involved in the Salinas explosion by sheer chance.

---

---

Boiler explosion was at Cooper,

With respect to Guad wreck:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,2137059,2137158#msg-2137158

thread courtesy of Dmaffei.

sphogger

sphogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boiler explosion was at Cooper,
>
> With respect to Guad wreck:
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,
> 2137059,2137158#msg-2137158
>
> thread courtesy of Dmaffei.
>
> sphogger

Thanks George!

EO

I have 4 names to add to your database of SP
steam-era Coast Division engineers:

1.  Joe Borda
2.  A. E. “Honey” Ruddell
3.  Benny Romano
4.  Bob Bongiorno

I never worked for the SP, but did talk to a few
SP "old heads", including one steam-era fireman,
who mentioned the names of two steam-era SP
Coast Division engineers he fired for in the early
1950s: Joe Borda and “Honey” Rudell.  

Joe Borda:
He was #1 in seenie and was an excellent
engineer.

A. E. “Honey” Rudell:
|He was #2 in seenie and was a hell of an engineer.
He came to the SP from the Santa Cruz Railway.

Benny Romano:
I knew the late Benny Romano because he was a
member of the Central Coast Chapter of the NRHS.

Bob Bongiorno:
He went to work for the SP in 1951 in San Francisco
as an engine-washer who washed the Daylight
locomotives in Mission Bay.  He got his seenie date
as a fireman in 1952.  He ran the Coast Daylight in
the steam era, and I heard his nickname back then
was "Velvet Paw”.  Much later, he worked on the
commutes, for Amtrak, and was promoted to Road
Foreman (I think that was his title). In the 1990s, he
would be on call if -- at the last minute -- a conductor
did not show up for Train #23, the first weekday
westbound plug out of San Jose, he would be the
Conductor.  (#23 was my regular morning train.)  
Bongie would only do the doors and the announcements --
nothing else.  By that time, he had more than 40 years
seenie with the railroad. and he told me, "What are they
gonna do -- fire me?" with a big grin.   He was a heavy
smoker, and I remember -- and miss -- his gravelly laugh.  
He was a great guy.