Railroaders' Nostalgia > Respect

The subject came up for me as a result of the discussion on corridor managers  here http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,4134840.

Once upon a time, Train Dispatcher was a very respected position. It was described to me once as like the Marines of the railroad: Only the best get to do it (and that by having been selected to be one of them, I was expected to maintain that standard). It deteriorated to being like a Warrant Officer (too good to be enlisted; not good enough to be an officer). Since then, it has deteriorated further.

Back 50 years ago and more, a nickname for train dispatcher was God because of the far-reaching responsibility and authority to carry out the responsibility.

In 2002, I was visiting the DB control center in Magdeburg, (formerly East) Germany. The manager of the control center was a Train Director (German equivalent of a train dispatcher) with a seniority date that looked like mine. We were lamenting the loss of respect for our profession. He mentioned that in The East, Train Directors had a uniform in the style of a senior military officer. They were shown respect wherever they went. I told him that in the US, we had no uniform, but we had the respect and that we were called God. He replied In The East there was no God, so we had to have a uniform.

TAW

There was also a time the dispatcher was a person, not just a voice that comes out of a black box from a bunker 1000 miles away from where you are. There was a time the dispatchers worked WITH​ the crews and accepted suggestions or advice when warranted; now they know everything and the crews know nothing. (Do you know how stupid a dispatcher sounds instructing you to cut your helpers out of your train before you get to the summit - and then argue with you about it when you try to explain you can't do that?) Most importantly there was a time dispatchers actually KNEW​ their territory because they worked relatively close to it, rode it, and crews could walk in and talk to a person.

Now in this day dispatchers have been consolidated into bunkers in some far removed place and their only knowledge of the territory is that it is a white line across the screen that changes colors to green, red, purple, and probably other colors. They're not allowed, or may be allowed but it's on their personal time, to actually see the railroad they handle. They're not allowed to dispatch anymore because they're supposed to use some computer program to do it for them or corridor managers will yell at them to do crap that makes no sense, screwing up plans they have made for what they want to have happen. As bad as it sounds dispatchers are more like drones today.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/16 12:32 by Railbaron.

As I understood it, even God required a clearance card.

LarryDoyle Wrote:
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> As I understood it, even God required a clearance
> card.

Come to think of it, one night the operator at (B&OCT) Western Ave (Chicago) OSed the Baltimore Jet by but never asked to let him out of Robey Street (yard). I challenged that and he told me that the trainmaster told him that they were almost late out of Robey so just let 'em go. Don't waste time asking. I told him that I didn't care if God came down out of the sky and told him to let a train out on my railroad, tell him it's my railroad not his, then tell me the train is ready to go.

TAW

I totally agree, God is a proper name for really good, to excellent dispatchers. The only one we Los Angeles UP railroaders called God was a well known ATSF, later BNSF dispatcher on the Cajon Sub, CQP, or first name "Clyde."   There are a few others we like to hear on the radio, they will let us make our mainline switchjob moves in front of Metrolink trains because they put a bit of trust in us and we strive to not let them down and delay their trains. I always tell our new student switchmen  to be polite as the dispatcher has your quit in his/her hand.

currently, how many of the railroads operating problems could be minimized IF they would listen to their dispatcher's input instead of somebody that has NEVER been in the chair?  that would be some well deserved respect.......

66

I always knew that
1.  the dispatchers I worked for on the IC and NYC knew more than I did and
2.  the dispatchers I worked with on the Rock Island knew more than I did and
3.  that the dispatchers that worked for me on the TRRA and SEPTA knew more than I did
The concept that dispatchers do not know their territory at all is just a "not right" concept to me. 
The NS approach, as I understand it, makes the most sense to me; put the dispatchers where the superintendent is.
The UP had centers in Omaha, Spring, and San Bernardino; do they still?

The late Smokey Trewin once told me a great story about DSs not working with the crews. One fine day, he went to eat at Davis (n the Cal-P) and the DS, who had a reputation for being high-handed and arrogant, told him to set out engine such-and-such for a north train to pick up. The crew started to complain, but Smokey shused them. They set out engine such-and-such and went to beans. When the got back, the (same) DS told them to get their engine and do this and this and this and this, to which Smokey replied "We no longer have an engine". Carryall to Roseville.

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
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> The late Smokey Trewin once told me a great story
> about DSs not working with the crews. One fine
> day, he went to eat at Davis (n the Cal-P) and the
> DS, who had a reputation for being high-handed and
> arrogant, told him to set out engine such-and-such
> for a north train to pick up. The crew started to
> complain, but Smokey shused them. They set out
> engine such-and-such and went to beans. When the
> got back, the (same) DS told them to get their
> engine and do this and this and this and this, to
> which Smokey replied "We no longer have an
> engine". Carryall to Roseville.

Good one

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
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> The late Smokey Trewin once told me a great story ...

​Actually a bit more to this story.

​The train originated out of Roseville headed west. Smokey went back into the dispatcher's office behind the yard office and talked to the Cal-P dispatcher about only having the single unit and that wouldn't get them down the Cal-P. The dispatcher was an arrogant type and told him the Cal-P is "flat" and that single unit is all they'd get. So off they went to do battle with the Cal-P. Now I doubt Smokey really cared as he earned the title "Mayor of Bahia" for good reason - that was his favorite place to die.

​In any case they were called on the radio and instructed to "set a unit out at Davis" - nobody said a word about only having the single unit. In those days crews had the right to eat so Smokey said they'd go to eat after doing the work. They tied the train down in the West Pass and set the unit to the East Pass and then went to eat. After a while, and hearing trains go by, they casually walked back into the operator's office at Davis and Smokey asked if they had a new clearance and orders for them. The operator had no idea what was going on so he asked the dispatcher, who in turn told Smokey to use the set they had out of Roseville. Smokey had the operator tell the dispatcher they couldn't do that because they set the unit out exactly as instructed. It was then the dispatcher went ballistic but there was nothing he could do other than call a ride for them to go to Oakland.

​I worked regular with Smokey a lot and we always had fun; he was probably one of the most fun conductors I ever worked with. I also learned a valuable lesson from him - keep your mouth shut, do exactly as told, and you'll make nothing but money. While I wasn't with Smokey on this trip (I wish I was) we had many other "strange" trips together. Good times!


 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/16 19:35 by Railbaron.

The late Gary Randrup provided the entertainment to all of us within radio range, leaving Roseville for Sparks one evening in 1991.

Rsvl is MP106, and the double tracks are together to Rocklin, MP111 where they separate.  The #2 track goes through three tunnels that the #1 doesn't between Rocklin and Newcastle MP119 where they come back together, so there is a high-wide detector on the #2 track at Rocklin where they split.

Its after dark, and Gary has the empty autos, about 6500 feet of empty trilevels, conductor only.  He sets off the high-wide detector, stops and tones up the dispatcher.
When the dispatcher answers, he tells him that somewhere in the 6500 feet of empty trilevels he has one that is too high, and the only thing to do is send a yard engine out of Rsvl to pull them back into the yard where there is light and the car dept can drive the train with a truck and a spotlight to find the high car.

The dispatcher says "No we're not going to do that, stay right there and we'll get back to you."  About 15 minutes later the disp comes back on the radio and says "Set the car out in Louisiana Pacific."

Gary replies, we can't do that because I would have to walk back 6500 feet to ride the last car of 6500 feet, where there is no place to ride, about five miles to get back over the Rocklin crossover, then you would have to get us authority to go against the current on the #1 track.  It won't work anyway, as we don't know which car is high, and Louisiana Pacific is a facing point switch anyhow!  The only thing to do is to have a Roseville yard engine come out and pull us back.

Dispatcher again says "No we're not going to do that, stay right there and we'll get back to you."  15 minutes later the dispatcher says "Set the car out in Lausman Lumber!"
To which Gary replies, Lausman Lumber is a facing point switch further up the #1 track from LP, and its not safe to hang  on a ladder on the back of 6500 feet for five miles! The only thing to do is to have a yard engine come out of Rsvl and pul us back so the car dept can look at  us. 

Dispatcher again says "No we're not going to do that, stay right there, and we'll get back to you."
About 20 minutes later, the dispr says "Take the car to Newcastle and set it out in the spur!"  To which Gary replies I still don't know which car is high out here in the dark, and the spur at Newcastle is on the other side of the tunnels the high-wide detector protects!  The only thing to do is have a yard engine come out of Rsvl and pull us back in the yard so the car dept can help us.  Again the dispr says "No we're not going to do that, sit right there." 

Well, about 20 minutes later, the dispatcher finally comes back on and says "Stay right there, and we'll have a yard engine out to get you."

Needless to say, not only does the trick dispatcher not know his railroad, neither does anybody else in the office!. They called a patch crew, because he had burned up about 2 hours waiting for them to call the yard job.  Then they had to wait for the engine to pull them back, and for the car dept to check the train...
G

Worked with Gary on a Newark local a few times a long time ago, sorry to hear of his passing.

The story reminds me of the time the DS instructed me to stop short of MP such-and-such because a car had been reported  stuck on the tracks. So I stopped and told him I couldn't see any car on the tracks between my engine and several miles beyond the spot he didn't want me to pass. He steadfastly refused to believe me. Finally it came out that the car was on a street which ran parallel to and a few blocks on the east (geographically) side of the main lines. It was stuck on an industry lead (this was a passenger train, and we made some overtime out of the deal).

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
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> Worked with Gary on a Newark local a few times a
> long time ago, sorry to hear of his passing.
>
> The story reminds me of the time the DS instructed
> me to stop short of MP such-and-such because a car
> had been reported  stuck on the tracks.

This one was so good that I used it in Elements of Train Dispatching to illustrate the kind of 98.6 in a dispatcher chair that you guys are describing:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1067080,1067333#msg-1067333
Date: 12/30/05 01:53
Re: Lengths of trains... Close, But No Cigar!
Author: sploopconductor

...and one about a UP 98.6 in a dispatcher chair that was running a train around one that got a lung (pulled out a drawbar) and told the train that was running around that if they had a spare drawbar, throw it off to the one they were passing, they seem to have lost one.

Part of the lack of respect is management's lack of respect that causes them to crank out instant experts to fill dispatcher chairs.

TAW

goneon66 Wrote:
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> currently, how many of the railroads operating
> problems could be minimized IF they would listen
> to their dispatcher's input instead of somebody
> that has NEVER been in the chair?  that would be
> some well deserved respect.......
>

That's for sure- that and improve the training program so that those leaving the program are truly ready to sit in a train dispatcherr chair.

TAW

Railbaron Wrote:
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> The operator had no idea what was
> going so he asked the dispatcher, who in turn told
> Smokey to use the set they had out of Roseville.
> Smokey had the operator tell the dispatcher they
> couldn't do that because they set the unit out
> exactly as instructed. It was then the dispatcher
> went ballistic but there was nothing he could do
> other than call a ride for them to go to Oakland.

Got exactly what he deserved. I worked with two guys that had been fired for arrogance. They were hated by everybody. One a GN guy and one an SP guy. The GN guy left a train off of the track car lineup. The operator knew it and never said a word - except to the gandy who was going to use it. The gandy put on appropriate theatre when he "just missed being hit" by the train that wasn't on the lineup. The SP guy lapped up two trains between, I think it was Niles and Fruitvale. He let the one out of Niles with nothing on the one out of Fruitvale. After clearing the train and giving the operator "ok out" (operators had to have permission to leave the office on SP, even to hand up orders), he figured it out and started ringing the phone off the wall, but the operator was "outside and couldn't hear the phone." The operator told the crew what was up and they started to come by slowly so that the operator could save the day and stop them. The operator then went in and OSed the train to the panicked dispatcher.
Can you stop them?
Uh, I can try...
(appropriately long period of nerve wracking time passes)
OK I got 'em.
and his dispatching days on SP ended.

With that kind of responsibility and authority, at times one needs to sound arrogant, but should never be arrogant.

TAW

My favorite story of a chief dispatchers occurred about 1970 on the Santa Fe's Albuquerque Division.  As part of a plan to restructure the railroad and reduce operating costs and improve service, Gallup Yard was to be downsized to only a daylight switch engine.  There would be no switch engine on duty on afternoons and midnights.  In a meeting that took most of a day, we went over each train that passed Gallup, carefully detailing how the traffic on that train would be handled.  Most of the trains were thru trains and only changed crews.  The blocking of cars for Gallup of course had to be changed and we thought we had every possibility covered.  Gallup had a beautiful 18 track yard  and the plan would have only used a few of the Northern tracks for switching and local freight makeups.  The long term plan was to abandon the South 10 tracks which paralled hwy 66 and lease that land out for high dollar highway frontage retail.
After the hours long meeting, the then chief dispatcher, who had not commented much to this point, declared he was really in favor of this change since Gallup yard would then have many open tracks.  "We could use the whole yard for holding trains for crews or power!!" he bragged.
To say the General Manager and Superintendent were not in agreement would be an understatement!

Norm

 

Norman Orfall
Helendale, CA
TIOGA PASS, a private railcar

These "true" stories of the western adventures "make my day"!
They are so funny (now).Keep them up.
I don't know why there are not many (none) posts from other
parts of the country adding stories.I have more myself,I have to get too.

Uncle Joe,Seffner,Fl.

There was one dispatcher who was my conductor once in awhile on the Surfliners.  A great guy and knows his territory.  On his days off occasionally, he'd come ride with me to get to know the line better.  (Conductors can't always see the territory like we do up front).  He's now with Metrolink.  If he stays there, he'll own the place.  On the old 1st, 2nd and third ATSF districts, it was Clyde, Cal, Frank and Frank Jr. who I always paid close attention to.  They knew their stuff!  Of course I'd be remiss if I didn' mention Mike Chavez on the SP.

The late Mike Chavez started out as an operator on the Santa Fe, and I knew him when he was an operator at Mission Tower in 1966.
G

Many, many years ago when I was working as a Conductor out of Oakland I got called as a flagman to protect an overpass being built just railroad west (north) of Newark on the Mulford line. I showed up at Newark Tower (just a single story building), picked up the portable radio, a line-up, and a copy of the train order providing protection at "MP XX" requiring all trains to stop unless authorized by the flagman (me) to proceed. So with radio in one hand, train order and line-up in the other, I headed off to the overpass to start my day.

Once there I checked with the outside contractor and he told me they shouldn't be anywhere near the mainline but he would check with me if they needed to be close to the tracks. With that I settled in for what should be a quiet day.

​Soon the first train approaches, a west train coming out of Newark. They were making speed and never called me so I called them and authorized them through the limits on "Order XX". There was a rather surprised tone to his voice as he repeated back the authorization and then he told me they didn't have that order!!! Well, no harm, no foul.

​A while passes and the next train approaches, Train #12 (Amtrak train #11) coming eastward. He doesn't call either so I call him and ask if they have "Order XX". His response was they didn't have it either so I went through the motions of authorizing him through the limits as if he did have it. Again, no harm, no foul.

​According to the line-up there weren't going to be any other trains for a while so I drove back to Newark and asked the operator why these trains weren't getting the order. He told me the dispatcher busted the order because I was out there to provide flag protection!!! I explained I don't do any good at all if nobody knows I'm there, which the operator understood. He called the chief dispatcher on the phone and the operator, myself, and the chief discussed the situation. Needless to say the order was immediately issued again and it is my understanding the dispatcher got a little vacation over that move.


 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/16 20:09 by Railbaron.