Eastern Railroad Discussion > Lorain & West Virginia question

I've noticed some more clearing of the right of way up to Oberlin, OH. I was curious if there is anyone out there that is involved with the Lake Shore Railway group that could give a brief update as to any current events. I've checked the website but couldn't find any updates in regards to future track work.

This seems like a good operation and hope that someday they will extend all the way into Lorain. It would be something to take the train over the Black River tressle in Sheffield! It looks as though a lot of work is needed in the Amherst area especially with the new turnpike interchange. Anyway, anyone with any information please let me know.

Thanks,
Dave
MP251

I'm not involved with LSRA, but I don't think it is very likely they will be able to go much further north than the NS (former NYC) mainline. LOTS of bridge maintenance and/or outright replacement would have to take place to run any further. Those bridges over roads and railroads, although built to hefty standards, are over 90 years old. The concrete work, if anything, would be extensive. Plus, there would likely be lots of public opposition to having trains run on a right-of-way that hasn't seen traffic in 35 years or more. There was an old geezer by the name of Penton who seemed to make it his life to give them grief, sending in deranged screeds to the local papers 10 years ago, when such a plan was first discussed.

I once was a member of the group two years ago. Assuming they put progress over ego-tripping, they may get to Oberlin in 2007. But, I wouldn't bet they would go any further than that. The main reason is the general public can only enjoy a train ride for about an hour or so and that's about 6 or 8 miles round trip on the L&WV (Oberlin I think is MP 10 or something). Going any further north like to the Lorain county speedway or Jamie's Flee market in South Amherst could happen but it would take a lot of money and time. One thing I know for sure that at the crossing of RT.58 they can't go any further. Since there is a turnpike interchange that uses the ROW and they took out the bridge there too. It will only run to Lorain in our dreams as far as I'm concerned.


Another thing, about the turnpike since I've used the interchange quite often I can say for sure L&WV will never have the money to get that going, nor would the state of Ohio be willing to waste money on it either. There's just no good promise on extending the line too me, can't use it to haul freight to Lorain since the steel mill is finally going to die (it's been on a roller coaster ride lately) and the L&WV isn't as scenic as it's neighbor the Cuyahoga Valley line. The only time I've seen that line make money was on fair week and Halloween runs, and that’s it! Sorry if it sounds like I got an issue with them I don’t, it just that the president of the organization rather burn bridges than build them, I know from three years there that the guy is the biggest jerk you could find. Maybe he has changed after two years since I’ve been there? I don’t know, but I spent my time in better plaices (like the Ohio Central) were the “big boss” really is thankful for your time.

Thanks for the response. I figured it would be a long shot to get any further than the turnpike but who knows. I have no affiliation with the group either I was just curious as to the status. By the sounds of it Oberlin might be a long shot too. As an Amherst resident there isn't much attraction to taking a train to the flea market, espeically from Wellington. The only trip I've been on is during the fair week a few years ago. They made the trip up to Pits road, then back down the station and then ran an excursion over the W&LE a few miles to the west. It was pretty nice to get up to "track speed", at least that's what it seemed like.

They should try to run more excursions over the W&LE. Though it might not be as scenic as the Ohio Central or Cuyahoga Valley it's still part of Ohio you can only see by rail. Even making a run to Lodi so the passengers can enjoy the stone bridges and small town. I don't know, I guess I'm just rambling on. Thanks again.

Okay Time to hear the rest of the story from someone who knows for sure.I have a front row seat!!!
1. Bryan, you know I have issues with a certain person as well. Everyone complains but no one seams to want to pitch in and help change things. I also put in quite a bit of time at the OC and done work for them at my shop and never seen you there. Another little bit of advice, you have my number give me a call and I'll put you to work. I have plans but am not going to do it all myself. No camera required. You also know I've brought other younger people in and they have worked there way up quick. The only thing limiting a person is themselves!
2.Halfmoon.I know your a rail around here.You might even know the rest of our story on the bridge Conrail jacked up without permission.
Rumors on bridges. Overbuilt from the start. ALL bridges have been inspected By a gentleman named Ken Cotten.Over 40 years railroad bridge experience. The"condemned" one over the black river at MP2, run on when we first started running with a slow order, 95,000.00 dollars later, Good for at least 30 more years with no restorations. All crete work can been repaired with shot crete repairs. Minimal steel work required most all bridges have steel ties.
You described Penton pretty well. An old man who made his living selling and racing Motorcycles complaining about "bloody" railroad crossings?????
Turnpike interchange. Done deal, signed deal, we go through there. Not giving details. already said to much. The interchange, a big economic growth. 2 years no new growth. not one new business.Not even a mini mart. Bryan you must be the only one using it. Less traffic than Bamuhart rd. that's a fact from the turnpike.
biggest problem facing the Lake Shore(owners of the L&WV) NS does not want us in Lorain. We get there and so does the W&LE this means the steel mill and a deep water port. Just the way the original W&LE built it.
The steel mill, hate to say it Bryan but you are so far wrong it's unreal. US. Steels most profitable operation last year???? LORAIN!!! Fact! I know this to be fact. CSX even made the comment about how good traffic is into and out of there. Now the Mexicans own R.E.P. they are making huge forward strides as well.
If anyone has anymore questions feel free to ask.

According to the map on the website the rails to the east of Elyria are owned by the NS. Does this limit the chance of making the way into Lorain?

When RT 58 is crossed will it be at grade or will a bridge be erected? Looks like in the past a bridge was once used. and how do you get through the turnpike? Did they leave enough room for a rail line to go under the pike?

Interesting story here, please keep the information coming!

Thanks,
Dave
MP251

scapegoat Wrote:
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> biggest problem facing the Lake Shore(owners of
> the L&WV) NS does not want us in Lorain. We get
> there and so does the W&LE this means the steel
> mill and a deep water port. Just the way the
> original W&LE built it.
> The steel mill, hate to say it Bryan but you are
> so far wrong it's unreal. US. Steels most
> profitable operation last year???? LORAIN!!!


DING DING DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

Mr Spy, if I remember right you work for the WLE, Maybe for Mr Clapper? If so I take it that's where the we have a winner comment comes from? E-mail me back channel if you'd like.

Yes I work for the WLE, but not for Clapper (yet), although I spoken to him many times.

I just wanted to say that I'm very thankful for the L&WV and all the members there. During my three or so years there they have taught me a lot about railroading which I could never learn any other way. I will admit it is a great place. It's just at times I get sick of the ego trips, which I guess exist in any organization. But personally I won't spend my own time having to deal with it!
Scapegoat, I'm trying my best to be a pro photographer now, which is why I have a camera in hand more than a wrench, yes I know it sounds like a typical railfan excuse. But, in my life I'm trying to pursue a path in photojournalism rather than railroading. Also, I'm trying to save up money for college, which is why I can't make out to the OC or any other place that often, time and money won't let me. But, still I try to do my part like in the August issue of Railpace this photo gave the railroad some free PR!
Getting to Oberlin seems attainable to me, but any further than that like other posters said just can’t happen, there isn't enough people (both passengers and crew) to support it and the railway doesn’t advertise that much at all. Plus there isn't interesting services like an excursion on the WLE (yes, I know the president hates passenger trains and L&WV history with them is some what shady) or caboose runs, or we could rent a parlor car from Orville, I don't know just something to make up for lack of scenery (with better service?).
L&WV is a decent road it’s just I can’t see a real goal in it. I know the main mission is to restore all 25 or so miles of the line to Lorain, I know (along with a few others) that won’t happen. So why not think with in our means (Like a 1 hour round trip) and make something great out of it! Instead of beating the same old dream over and over, and letting stubbornness get the best of us.

---

Let me just interject something before this thread gets really old.....
If the Wheeling was really interested in getting into Lorain, wouldn't they help the L&WV clear the tracks and ready it for freight? But that doesn't make much sense either since they already have access to Toledo and Huron with trackage rights over the NS why not just extend those rights from Shinrock to Lorain? Or the other option is trackage rights from Grafton to Lorain over the CSX. They already have track rights from Wellington to Berea. I'm not 100% on how trackage rights work or how they are acheived but they already have lines that could reach Lorain if they really wanted to.

Any comments?

Why would CSX or NS want to help someone take their business away? On the bridges, every time I drive under the one over SR57, I cringe when I look at that western abutment crumbling. Who's going to fix it?

Perhaps something to do with the ICC to get trackage rights. If W&LE was gung-ho over Lorain they would of built a connecting track at Grafton and worked out something with CSX or with Conrail before the merger.

It just seems that the L&WV would be banking on the Wheeling to use their tracks if they ever make it to Lorain. I can't imagine that trackage rights would generate much revenue for such a small line like that.

Speaking of money, where does the L&WV get the money to do all the track work so far? As I mentioned before to cross 58 and the turnpike is no easy task. We're talking grading, bridges, tunnels etc. Doesn't sound cheap to me and I high doubt @ 5$ a ticket would pay for such an endevor.

Thanks for the responses so far, this has been a very interesting thread.

Thanks,
Dave

A few more answers.
Half moon. Route 57 bridge. Less than 25,000. Bases on that bridge are 18 plus feet thick at the base. What you see is surface spauling. not a big deal to fix at all.
Bryan, ICC? LONG gone no such thing anymore. Why would conrail, CSX, or NS want to help someone take their freight away? Think about it!! Not to mention connector tracks are some times impossible due to alignment problems in the direction of flow. Grafton has changed quite a bit.
Trackage rights? few problems, your train runs on their road when it suits them not you. Huron? 75 miles extra ONE way
(150 miles round trip) Lorain adds almost 30 more one way.lots of doubling back and a back up or run around move also. No back hauls.
Bryan I hope your pursue your goals with more of a positive outlook than you see the L&WV's Future.
BTW when someone was shown your picture their first comment was he was trespassing when he took that.

scapegoat Wrote:
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> BTW when someone was shown your picture their
> first comment was he was trespassing when he took
> that.


I have never seen a more rabid anti-railfan group of railfans!

John Benson

http://www.bensonrailphotos.com

scapegoat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW when someone was shown your picture their
> first comment was he was trespassing when he took
> that.


That is the attitude that LSRA is known for throughout the local railfan community. I just have a question for the members here, why is it like that? Is there some reason why it is necessary to be so anti-social with other rail enthusiasts?

Mark

I understand the frustration. Mr Slides I wouldn't lump me into the "whole group" There. I got you into the steel mill to take pictures of our locomotives here. If "I" was that way you would not have got in there.
I don't know or understand why one person in our group has such a bad attitude.
I know sometimes the one bad Apple spoils the basket theory.It works both ways. We have one guy who is anti railfan and we are all labeled as such. We have had several incidents with rail fans and I'll share a few I've witnessed or been part of.These are not ones I just heard about.
One day as engineer I came around the curve at MP2 and there was a guy standing on the bridge (in the gauge of course) taking pictures. He got away before I could get to him. also allot of people just pull up and start walking down the tracks to take pictures, usually in the gauge without ever asking permission or waiting for someone to go with them.This while we were doing switching moves on the same tracks. I've had 2 guys Get mad at me when they asked to go north and take pictures and I said sure Let me grab a coat and I'll walk up with you. I was told we don't need a damn babysitter. I politely told them it was company policy and someone had to go with them. They got all pissed off and stormed off spinning gravel in the parking lot on our cars.
Another train of thought how do we know you are there to take pictures or really just caseing the place? We've lost over 5,000.00 dollars in horns, bells and tools, not to mention 3,000 tie plates in the past 14 years.
We have been sued by our volunteers while working, for something that was their fault. We've been sued for someone going to fast over our rail crossing. Guess what our biggest operating expense cost is? Same as every railroad group in our position, Insurance!
We are an operating F.R.A. railroad, same as the Wheeling, CSX, NS etc. Just smaller. You don't expect to go wondering anywhere you want on their property, what gives you the right to on ours. We have worked long and hard to get where we are. I really hate working fund raising to pay a lawyer to fight against someone trying to get rich quick.
Now to share "captain Anti railfans" outlook on things. How does your coming on property to take pictures for free, never spend 5 minutes to help out, spend no money there, and bring nothing to the table, help us (he would use me instead of us) do what we do? We don't walk in your back yard and take a picture of your Grill or lawn mower because we are grilling or lawn mower fans.
Personally, when I meet someone out I there try to spend at least a few minutes talking to them, maybe even try to recruit you to our cause. I do this in a friendly manner when the same courtesy is shown to me. But yes if you put yourself in a position to be injured or even killed, well than no I'm not the nicest guy. I don't want to spend the rest of my life with the I killed someone thing in my mind. I know to many guys that do in the railroad profession and don't want to join that club.
One last thing. you probably won't find me down there very often. I get sick of some of the crap as well. I know the potential to be had there, I've been there from the start in 1978 and sooner or later find enough people who want to help change the way things are run for the better. I can't and won't do it by myself. If you'd like a high reward challenge drop me a line.

Thank you for the response.

I assumed the reasoning was as you described, which is very understandable. I do not advocate trespassing to get a good shot, especially when it puts someone needlessly in danger. But at the same time, I see NO harm in what the photographer did to get the picture posted above in this thread, provided he kept his hands off the equipment. And one individual or not, when I hear stories of people being threatened with a call to the police because they pulled off to the side of the road and stood on public property long enough to grab a few shots of your equipment, I have to wonder about the group and how it is run. If the fear is that these photographers are "casing the joint" for treasure, well, I almost feel sorry for someone so paranoid to think everyone is out to get them. Chances are that the thieves you are having trouble with are not railfans and more than likely they use mental pictures, rather than photographs. I was not aware that it was one person who was like this - he has certainly tarnished the group's reputation in my mind and in the minds of many others in the area.

I still support the cause and wish the group well. Unfortunately, my free time is limited and I don't feel like wasting what little time I have on a group with such an overbearing individual in power.

It's not the surface spalling I'm looking at, it's the crumbling that is reaching under the pedestal holding up the bridge deck. If you say it's not serious, I'll take your word for it, but it doesn't look too good. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just concerned for the motorists driving under it. It's the kind of thing that is ignored until something bad happens someday.