Eastern Railroad Discussion > Harassed in Fostoria -- NS response

The following was sent to Mr. Wagner earlier this evening. If anyone wants to continue the discussion off-line, my contact info is at the end.

Dear Mr. Wagner:

Thank you for your e-mail and bringing Saturday’s incident to our attention. We have looked into the matter and clearly there was a misunderstanding between you and one of our employees, which was regrettable. The employee is relatively new, and was not fully aware of the company’s position on photography and scanners. She has since been counseled on these matters. If any blame is to be assigned, it should be on our training programs, and we are in the process of correcting that.

Unfortunately, while you were at the McDougal Street crossing, a train approached and activated the warning device. When this occurred, you chose to remain between the tracks and the dropped crossing gate to continue to take some pictures. There was at least one moment when you were fouling the tracks while the train approached. At this point, our employee’s concern was not about pictures or scanners, but for your safety and the safety of the train crew. This was certainly a contributing factor to the tone of the situation. To put a positive spin on this, perhaps we can chalk this up to a learning experience for everyone involved.

With regard to photography in general, on the corporate level Norfolk Southern understands that you have the right to photograph our trains – as long as you are not violating any laws in the process. But there is a challenge for us in railroad public relations and for railfans (who are willing to acknowledge the following facts): the great majority of our employees view being the subjects of photographs as an invasion of their privacy – and some of those employees are very protective of their privacy. In short, they don’t want their pictures taken. Additionally, people standing in close proximity to our right of way – even on public property – create a level of anxiety with our employees because they don’t know what their intents are. Photographer or the next suicide statistic? I don’t know how all the interests involved can been reconciled to everyone’s satisfaction. So, while taking photographs of railroad operations from legal vantage points are fine, you should be aware that your hobby creates a level of discomfort with many of our employees.

I hope this adequately addresses your concerns, but please feel free to give me a call or drop me an e-mail if you would like to discuss further.

Rudy Husband
Norfolk Southern Corp.
610-567-3377

rudy.husband@nscorp.com

That is a refreshingly candid, measured, and comprehensive response from NS. My hat is off to NS.

Hey you never said you were fouling the tracks. is this really true? or was that ns employee making up some cover her butt story ? im surprised you got a nice response from the ns. other railroads ive worked at would have laughed at a letter like that . so thanks for standing up for us railfans, buddy!

Thanks Mr. Husband for bringing the rails side to the front, ed

conraildanpswr Wrote:
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> Hey you never said you were fouling the tracks.
> is this really true?

Were you between the activated gates and the tracks? I have seen this happen there along people kneeling right at the EDGE of the amtrak platforms right next to the tracks.

Certainly a well written PR response. If he was between the gates and the tracks it puts a different twist on the situation. I can't pull up the original post to see what info it contained. Hopefully this wasn't a CYA response from the employee.

Over the years I have seen many people taking pictures while standing very close to the tracks. I really don't understand this type of photography. They put themselves at danger in a number of ways, including getting cut up by loose metal banding whipping in the air. Perhaps there's a rush or a false sense of bravery attained by standing so close. I'm sure it makes the crew apprehensive as well. Most of these types of pictures leave a lot to be desired photographically as well. IMHO, they are worse than the standard 3/4 wedgie.

Everyone has their own standard of photography, but I find that standing back a ways from the tracks and taking in some of the scenery leads to a much nicer picture. It also pulls in the surroundings to help document the location and time period if such info is not written on the slide or print. It also leads to less confrontation, although I still seem to get far too many middle finger salutes from the cab windows!

Baltimore

I agree overall, a very good response from Mr. Husband. It does elicit two thoughts from me:

Concerning the issue of what my intentions are: If I'm close enough to the right-of-way that I could possibly be mistaken for a jumper or a rock thrower, I used to wave as the train approached to signal benign intent. I had hoped the train crews recognize this as such, but I've now been advised that some suicide-by-train types also wave, so I won't do that any more.

As for the matter of the party to the incident under discussion: If he was indeed on the wrong side of the gate or fouling the right-of-way, then that's what the employee should have called him on, not some load of crap about scanners, illegal photography, and terrorism.

I think that's a very reasonable response from NS. Now, can we send it to the rent-a-cops at CSXT's Chambersburg, PA, intermodal ramp? Gerry

baltimore Wrote:
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> Over the years I have seen many people taking
> pictures while standing very close to the tracks.
> I really don't understand this type of
> photography. They put themselves at danger in a
> number of ways, including getting cut up by loose
> metal banding whipping in the air. Perhaps there's
> a rush or a false sense of bravery attained by
> standing so close. I'm sure it makes the crew
> apprehensive as well.

Well said, all that scrap that you see trackside at one point came off a train at speed. I got to figure a brake shoe hitting you at 50mph is going to leave a mark! And your right on with the remark about the crew, it does get tense as you start running the what if's through your mind.

baltimore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Certainly a well written PR response. If he was
> between the gates and the tracks it puts a
> different twist on the situation. I can't pull up
> the original post to see what info it contained.
> Hopefully this wasn't a CYA response from the
> employee.
>
> Over the years I have seen many people taking
> pictures while standing very close to the tracks.
> I really don't understand this type of
> photography. They put themselves at danger in a
> number of ways, including getting cut up by loose
> metal banding whipping in the air. Perhaps there's
> a rush or a false sense of bravery attained by
> standing so close. I'm sure it makes the crew
> apprehensive as well. Most of these types of
> pictures leave a lot to be desired
> photographically as well. IMHO, they are worse
> than the standard 3/4 wedgie.
>
> Everyone has their own standard of photography,
> but I find that standing back a ways from the
> tracks and taking in some of the scenery leads to
> a much nicer picture. It also pulls in the
> surroundings to help document the location and
> time period if such info is not written on the
> slide or print. It also leads to less
> confrontation, although I still seem to get far
> too many middle finger salutes from the cab
> windows!
>
> Baltimore

Well said sir regarding where to stand on taking photos or video. However, on your last sentence I've never had that problem.

A well-worded response, but a bit disingenuous. How did the employee come to equate photographing trains unnecessarily close to the tracks with the possibility that the railfan was a terrorist? Have your training programs been in the habit of instilling that all photography is suspicious and terroristic, regardless of proximity to the rails?

-Mike

B36-7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> baltimore Wrote:
. It also leads to less
> > confrontation, although I still seem to get far
> > too many middle finger salutes from the cab
> > windows!
> >
> > Baltimore
>
> Well said sir regarding where to stand on taking
> photos or video. However, on your last sentence
> I've never had that problem.

Well, I've only noticed it probably less than a dozen times, but once is too many. One guy got me at three different locations!

Baltimore

Great response from NS. A little bit of the company covering their own, but also taking some of the responsibility. I've considered myself a fairly safe railfan but I've done some things that I shouldn't have done. Some of them were due to not being sensitive to some matters. Since becoming a member of TO.com I've become educated on some of these things and that's because so many of you have expressed problems and dangers that we all should know about. A special thanks to many of you for sharing these items. With that being said, everyone of us on this forum should be aware of what's safe and legal, and what's not. As railfans, our first responsibility is to respect the laws and then we need to be safe, and often those things overlap. When an over zealous agent confronts us, I guess it's best to comply and then take the problem up with corporation.

That's my 2¢ worth and that's how I'll railfan.

John

Keep in mind most newer locomotives have "railview" cameras, just to provide proof of what really happened at a grade crossing accident.

I guess I don't understand why people would have to stand really close. Think that's why they invented zoom lenses? If I'm anywhere near a crossing, I will usually take a few steps back as the train physically approaches, to show I don't plan to throw myself in front of it. A lot of the time I'll stand behind my car and shoot around it to also show my intent to stay where I am.

halfmoonharold Wrote:
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> Keep in mind most newer locomotives have
> "railview" cameras, just to provide proof of what
> really happened at a grade crossing accident.

And it's very likely that footage, if said train was equipped, was reviewed as part of the response process.

Part of the problem too is that some magazines seem to be more than willing to publish pictures
that obviously involved trespassing on private property or being too close to the tracks.
In my working days I was more inclined to help people than hinder them but I would report somebody
who was too close to the tracks, climbing on equipment or signals or conducting themselves in an
unsafe manner. It was very rare that I ever had to do this.
I think there is enough blame to go around in this case too.
Noel Weaver

The world we live in today, since post 9-11 incident in New York City has changed everyones point of view. I have viewed training videos from Norfolk Southern showing what to look for. That person dressed in jeans, hat and insulated shirt is not dressed like us N S folks. Motor Vehicles of suspect orgin not marked with Corporate logo or company color. Back in the 50's and on. I used to be able to ride most anytime with the Local train crews. Today with the High dollar value of trains and Insurance liability costs.
Railroad folks who view rail fans as possible people who will do harm to the company tracks, railroad workers or trains. It is impossible to do anything that might be suspected an act of terrorist or destruction of railroad property.

My main point is this. Watch the trains, take photos, enjoy the day outside. But Stay back from the tracks. Your on Company property which is trespassing. Know exactly your legal boundry lines where you place your feet on. Most of all. BE SAFE in doing this hobby we enjoy called RAIL FANNING. This Hobby can be very Dangerous and life taking to the next world above.

O A R C IN 45885 zip code

Were you inside the gates or not. We're all waiting to find out. There's not a lot of room between the rail and most crossing grade signals.

I'm very surprised that NS responded at all. It was a nice gesture, but probably more window dressing than anything else. Train crews know that in places like Fostoria, Deshler, and others that railfans tend to congregate. Unfortunately there are some backwards ass people that work for railroads that simply don't like railfans. (I'm sure other railroaders on here know where I'm coming from). They always have to make negative comments... "about those damn buffs!". I've noticed that some of the newer hires take on this attitude as well, probably just to fit in. Maybe this guy did get too close to the tracks... but I would guess it was probably just a mindless new hire trying to act like a big shot.