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Eastern Railroad Discussion > 3C in Cincinnati


Date: 02/18/10 05:11
3C in Cincinnati
Author: jallenp

Found this on the ODOT web site under the TRAC section, District 8 is requesting money to take the first step to have the final stop of the 3C train at the riverfront station under 2nd street. this would be an excellent location with access to both stadiums, downtown, freedom center and a few blocks from the convention center. Below are pictures of the Transit Center:

See the following link http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/transitcenter.html

I have heard that the Cardinal would also use the transit center with rails also contructed from the west

On a side note, a new parking garage is going to be built between the Freedom center and Paul Brown stadium all of this parking has easy access to the transit center. I found out when I was notified that I lost my season parking pass for the Bengals due to the contruction during the 2010 season.

PID# 86463 : Perform Environmental analyses and Preliminary Engineering for the following rail segments: Oasis Segment 1-Riverfront Transit Center to Boathouse: Provide rail on a combination of new alignment and existing track along with rail stations for connections at riverfront locations. (1 mile) Oasis Segment 2-Boathouse to US 50 in the Village of Fairfax: Provide rail on existing rail R/W controlled by SORTA, Upgrade structures as necessary, establish rail stations for possible neighborhood connections and connections at Lunken Airport and Linwood area. (7 miles) Oasis Segment 3-Village of Fairfax to Village of Newtown: Establish a new rail corridor along shared new highway to coincide with Highway Segment II/III, establish 2 multimodal transit hubs at US 50 and Newtown Road. (4 miles) Oasis Segment 4-North of the Village of Newtown to City of Milford: Provide rail on or along existing rail corridor, establish a station at Ancor Industrial Complex and multi modal station at the City of Milford. (5 miles)



Date: 02/18/10 07:00
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: glendale

This is by far the best spot for the station in Cincinnati. I could even envision people riding the train from Sharonville to Cincinnati for Bengals/Reds games if the station was between the two Stadiums.



Date: 02/18/10 07:47
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: Conraildan2

So it sounds as if they want to use the tracks imbedded in the sidwalk through Sawyer Point Park? I think it be neat if they just reconnected the tracks to the west of the stadiums. this would be a big advantage for the I&O as their pig iron trains are loaded there and would have a bypass around the congestion of the Queensgate yard.



Date: 02/18/10 08:17
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: glendale

Conraildan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So it sounds as if they want to use the tracks
> imbedded in the sidwalk through Sawyer Point Park?
> I think it be neat if they just reconnected the
> tracks to the west of the stadiums. this would be
> a big advantage for the I&O as their pig iron
> trains are loaded there and would have a bypass
> around the congestion of the Queensgate yard.


I was told a year or two ago, that when Paul Brown Stadium was built, I&O pleaded with the City of Cincinnati to leave the Oasis line connected for potential commuter rail during the daytime hours, and freight rail at night, but the city wasn't interested at all. So I'm not sure they would be too excited about letting I&O run pig iron trains through downtown. Maybe K8DTI or ScrapHauler can add more to this.



Date: 02/18/10 08:23
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: scraphauler

Conraildan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So it sounds as if they want to use the tracks
> imbedded in the sidwalk through Sawyer Point Park?
> I think it be neat if they just reconnected the
> tracks to the west of the stadiums. this would be
> a big advantage for the I&O as their pig iron
> trains are loaded there and would have a bypass
> around the congestion of the Queensgate yard.


Sort of. Plan as I recall it calls for a new right of way from a point somewhere west if the Montgomery Inn Boathouse to the transit center and would require a complete reconstruction of Pete Rose Way. Track would curve up to Pete Rose Way in vicinity of the Purple People Bridge (former L&N Bridge) and run with Pete Rose Way in front of (north of) the Midland Building and One Lytle Place (current out of service track runs behind [south] those buildings). Track would be PASSENGER ONLY, no I&O through the Transit Center.

Track out westend of Transit Center is a lot more "straight forward" and should be a lot cheaper to build - just straight out through the parking lots to the CIND Ditch Track behind Longworth Hall.

The "Original" 3C plan called for a temporary station to be built at/near the Montgomery Inn Boathouse until ODOT could come up with the coinage to bust into the Transit Center. But the NIMBYs along the eastern Riverfront cried loudly and of course, the city council agreed, so the supports of this service broke into various fractions each wanting the station somewhere else - Lunkin Airport, CUT, Sharonville, Norwood, etc. So how will ODOT overcome the City's objection to choo-choos on the Riverfront? More studies??? Yea, that's what we need



Date: 02/18/10 08:38
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: scraphauler

glendale Wrote:
> I was told a year or two ago, that when Paul Brown
> Stadium was built, I&O pleaded with the City of
> Cincinnati to leave the Oasis line connected for
> potential commuter rail during the daytime hours,
> and freight rail at night, but the city wasn't
> interested at all. So I'm not sure they would be
> too excited about letting I&O run pig iron trains
> through downtown. Maybe K8DTI or ScrapHauler can
> add more to this.

This disconnection of the two lines started back when CIND and IORY where two separate unrelated independent shortlines. The two lines had developed a respectable flow of traffic between each other using the line and that all fell on deaf ears with the City and STB - This was a municipal/county project for the "Good of the Region" and there where other routing options available for this traffic, so too bad. Guarantee the City will fight to prevent any freight from using the Transit Center if that ever comes to be.

As a side note, the CIND had a robust produce business on the Riverfront before the Stadiums where built. The Crosset Company and Castellini Company each had their own sidings and received reefers of potatoes, carrots, and onions. Cincinnati Commercial Warehouse served a multitude of other customers and received potatoes, onions, carrots, apples, broccoli, frozen fruit, tomato paste and shipped beer, tea, and soft drinks. CIND worked with a developer and tried to save this business by building a new facility for all in the old NYC Riverside Yard property. The City of Cincinnati threw every road block they could at that projects under the guise of the property being better served for future retail development. The project never happened, the produce houses scattered to new locations OUTSIDE the city limits (or closed up), so the City lost the dockworkers jobs and tax base for the "prospect" of future retail jobs. Today, the old Riverside yard still sits empty. Typical Cincinnati.



Date: 02/18/10 13:46
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: MEKoch

A total waste of money to build anything south of Sharonville, until money can be found to go to CUT. 3C can uses buses from Sharonville to various Cincinnati locations and Ky locations until proper money is found.

I can't believe Ohio would throw $30M down a rathole called the Oasis line.



Date: 02/18/10 15:59
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: glendale

MEKoch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A total waste of money to build anything south of
> Sharonville, until money can be found to go to
> CUT. 3C can uses buses from Sharonville to
> various Cincinnati locations and Ky locations
> until proper money is found.
>
> I can't believe Ohio would throw $30M down a
> rathole called the Oasis line.


Couldn't disagree with you more. CUT would be just as bad of an option as Lunken Airport. If I ride a train into Cincy and get off at CUT, what's there to do? There is nothing to do around CUT. Walk the good mile or two to the stadiums? Walk a mile downtown? I love CUT, but it just isn't a viable option for a train station in 2010 and beyond.

Instead, I could take a train right into downtown, get off, and walk a block to either of the stadiums or downtown businesses. Sounds like a win to me.

Plus the Oasis Line can easily be made into a suitable railroad. There's already heavy rail, nice straight ROW (plus SORTA already owns some of it), and it avoids the cluster of Queensqate Yard, Hopple Street, and Winton Place.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/10 16:02 by glendale.



Date: 02/18/10 16:03
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: P

The more I think about it, the less I think CUT should be the endpoint.

There was a transit center built downtown that was designed for rail, but is not currently being used. This really is where the line should end. It is right downtown and within walking distance of just about everything downtown. If it happens to stop at CUT on the way by, that's fine, but it really should end at the transit center that was built several years ago.



Date: 02/18/10 16:03
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: glendale

scraphauler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So how will ODOT overcome the City's objection to
> choo-choos on the Riverfront? More studies???
> Yea, that's what we need

That's what I'm afraid of. All of this money will end up going to more studies.



Date: 02/18/10 17:02
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: scraphauler

Cincinnati Union Terminal is a beautiful building and makes a wonder museum complex. I'm glad it's preserved and wish it could be more useful as a train station, but it's in the wrong location for today. Look at it this way - if CUT did not exists would anyone seriously propose building a new station in that location? I would have to say no. If the 3C has ANY chance of success, the stations in Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, and Cincinnati are going to have to be as close to the central business district/entertainment districts as possible. In Cincinnati, you have such a location ALREADY BUILT - 2nd Street Transit Center - in between Paul Brown Stadium and Great American Ball Park, at the base of downtown, at the foot of the Suspension Bridge to Covington and Central Bridge to Newport. All you have to do is lay the tracks. Even the most die-hard CUT supporter concedes that to use CUT a lot of money is going to need to be spent to expand track capacity for NS/CSXT before they even think of allowing this. Why not spend the money to put the tracks into the right place.



Date: 02/18/10 20:11
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: halfmoonharold

Dumb question: If you can bus from Sharonville, why not CUT? I have no real opinion on this personally.



Date: 02/19/10 09:56
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: P

halfmoonharold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dumb question: If you can bus from Sharonville,
> why not CUT? I have no real opinion on this
> personally.


The people suggesting ending at Sharonville are suggesting this is a temporary measure until a suitable endpoint in Cincinnati can be constructed. To permanently end at CUT would be a handicap for the service. People are more apt to ride the train if they know they can get off and be at or within walking distance of their endpoint.



Date: 02/19/10 10:06
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: jallenp

Urban Ohio has an excellent discussion about the project

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18328.0.html

I have heard some Republicans in Columbus will not allow the project to move forward; however, what politician is not going take a 400 million handout to spend, if we do take, there are other states who will.

I think if Ohio does not do this now, we will never see a structured and consistent passenger service in the state.

This is the first step to take and still have a tall mountain to climb until we have a transportation system like Europe or Asia.

On a side note; I wish that US Rail Car (once know as Colorado Railcar) would have received their grant to build a plant at Port Columbus, this would have provided a few hundred jobs and a new customer for Ohio Central put they did not sound discourage, they have raise I believe 2/3 of the funds to build the plant. They built many of the coaches for Alaska Railroad and developing a modern day Bud Car know has a DMU, here is their web site http://www.usrailcar.com/



Date: 02/19/10 21:00
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: K8DTI

I agree Greg. CUT actually had this very problem when it was built. It was not in the heart of the city like the stations it replaced, but at the time there was no other viable option or available real estate that was out of the flood plain (they actually built up the elevation of the land during construction to make it so). Bypassing the congested freight corridor makes perfect sense. Nothing would harm this project more than delays due to freight congestion. By making this concession, the freight roads are much more likely to go along with it.

glendale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Couldn't disagree with you more. CUT would be just
> as bad of an option as Lunken Airport. If I ride a
> train into Cincy and get off at CUT, what's there
> to do? There is nothing to do around CUT. Walk
> the good mile or two to the stadiums? Walk a mile
> downtown? I love CUT, but it just isn't a viable
> option for a train station in 2010 and beyond.
>
> Instead, I could take a train right into downtown,
> get off, and walk a block to either of the
> stadiums or downtown businesses. Sounds like a win
> to me.
>
> Plus the Oasis Line can easily be made into a
> suitable railroad. There's already heavy rail,
> nice straight ROW (plus SORTA already owns some of
> it), and it avoids the cluster of Queensqate Yard,
> Hopple Street, and Winton Place.



Date: 02/20/10 04:54
Re: 3C in Cincinnati
Author: P

glendale Wrote:>
>
> Couldn't disagree with you more. CUT would be just
> as bad of an option as Lunken Airport. If I ride a
> train into Cincy and get off at CUT, what's there
> to do? There is nothing to do around CUT.

While I understand what you are saying, there is actually A LOT to do at CUT, but you have to stay in the building to do it. Going offsite would require supplemental transportation.
At CUT, there are a couple of outstanding museums, Tower A, Imax theater, Amtrak station and of course the experience of taking in the aura of the main waiting area. All great activities, but hardly enough to warrant being the final destination of a 300 mile rail line. Sorry to nitpick your statement, but most people are probably unaware of what is in CUT currently.

The final destination will be a major factor in the success or failure of the route. Why build a transit center if you are not going to use it?



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