Eastern Railroad Discussion > CP Rail police in NY state

I am posting this thread at the request of a friend who isn't a TO's member. He was traveling across New York on route 7 this afternoon and stopped to photograph a train stopped at Worchester, NY. He was stopped by a CP Rail Special Agent and cited for trespassing. He was given a notice to appear in court on Tuesday night. If he fails to appear a warrant will be put out for his arrest. Is this a common thing in New York? Has anyone else had a similar experience and if so what was the out come? One other thing to note is that there is no question that he was on CP property but nothing was posted. Lastly, please note that I am in California and am not familiar NY and CP policies.

Let the law enforcement bashing begin..............

RGZ17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am posting this thread at the request of a
> friend who isn't a TO's member. He was traveling
> across New York on route 7 this afternoon and
> stopped to photograph a train stopped at
> Worchester, NY. He was stopped by a CP Rail
> Special Agent and cited for trespassing. He was
> given a notice to appear in court on Tuesday
> night. If he fails to appear a warrant will be put
> out for his arrest. Is this a common thing in New
> York? Has anyone else had a similar experience and
> if so what was the out come? One other thing to
> note is that there is no question that he was on
> CP property but nothing was posted. Lastly, please
> note that I am in California and am not familiar
> NY and CP policies.


CP and other railroad police in NY hold valid police powers. There's a NY statute that allows the superintendent of the state police to invest individuals with full law enforcement powers.

The absence of any posting may carry weight with the judge hearing the case, but, if it was me, I'd have an attorney.

(The three times I've been cited for minor offenses, the police officer failed to show at the hearing, and charges were dismissed. Your mileage may vary.)

1. I am not a lawyer, but I've been around the track a few times.

2. Is this an infraction, or a misdemeanor? If it is an infraction, (like a traffic ticket),
then you should be able to mail the fine to the court, and be done with it. An infraction does
not count as a "criminal record" afaik. I've been convicted of a few traffic violations over the
years, and I don't have a criminal record.

3. Misdemeanor...I'm not sure. But I'd have an attorney at least look at the citation, and go to
the hearing if deemed necessary.

4. Do not admit guilt, unless you are pleading guilty. There are no brownie points for
"fessing up" You may think you're guilty, but the law may say otherwise. You don;t know.
That's what lawyers are for.
Also, as soon as you admit guilt in court, it's game over. The judge can convict you.
If you were doing something stupid, like taking pix while standing on a RR bridge, let your
attorney do the talking.

5. If you go to the hearing, chances are the RR police will not show up. Giving you this
citation is their way of inconveniencing you enough so that you won;t get near their tracks again.
When the CP came to Binghamton NY 30 years or so ago, talk was all over the place about how
you couldn;t set foot in Conklin yard without a CP cop chasing you out. And that was pre-9/11.
During the D&H years before that, we all used to hang out in the yard tower with the employees.

6. If you are going to the hearing, and want to impress the judge, go out and take pix of the area where you were, and show that there are no fences and no private property signs. Also take a copy of the photo you took, and a small portfolio of other RR pix you have taken, to show this as a benign hobby. Judges love to have someone prepared in their court. Most of the time they have to put up with complete idiots, who have to muster all their intelligence, just to show up on time.

7. If you are out of state, request a postponement of the hearing if necessary.
Usually either side gets 1 free postponement

6. NY and northern NJ are still very 9/11 paranoid. Everyone is a terrorist. There are still a lot of guys who have delusions of how they are going to get a ticker-tape parade down 5th ave for stopping the next terrorist. The closer you are to NYC, the worst it gets.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/11 22:48 by pdt.

What happens if neither side show up for the hearing?

I've never heard of such a short time between a citation and arraignment! I hope you'll keep us posted on how this plays out. Damn shame he got hit with a citation and not a warning; was he in a really, well, "stupid" place, or just on the ROW?

A prudent person should contact an attorney before going before a court.


http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/trespassing-lawyers.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/11 07:45 by TrackOne.

P Wrote:
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> What happens if neither side show up for the
> hearing?


Then YOU get the warrant for YOUR arrest!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/11 20:57 by mkostecky.

NS will do that out my way if they feel like it. But usually they'll just put you in their system. But the next time you might actually go to jail.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/11 07:51 by wabash2800.

A ticket on Saturday, and appear in court on Tuesday? Wow! They must consider a trespassing offense more than being like a traffic ticket. I got nabbed by radar a couple of weeks ago, and I had 15 days to send the ticket in.

However, when I was young and more foolish, and growing up in Vermont, I got picked up for speeding on the Taconic State Pkwy in NY. This would have been in the early 1960s. It was a Saturday. The NY State patrolman said, "Follow me, son."

We went to the next exit, down a country road, and left up a long drive to a farmhouse. A little sign said, "XXXX XXXXXX" Justice of the Peace. "Afternoon, Your Honor," said the cop.

"Howdy, John. I'll be with you in a sec. Go on back to the office."

I was charged, the judge asked me how I pleaded. I tried to plead nolo contendre, but he said, "Nope, can't do that in this state, son. You are either guilty or not guilty. If you want to plead 'Not Guilty", I will have to hold you over in jail for trial. This is a long weekend, so first court session won't be until Tuesday. So what do you say, young man?"

"Guilty, Your Honor," says I.

"Okay, son. $15 plus court costs ($6.70, I think), cash only."

I was back on the road again in about 30 minutes. Simpler times in those days. Do they still do that in NY?

Barry

SCL1517 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've never heard of such a short time between a
> citation and arraignment!

I believe an arraignment is hearing where you are officially charged
with the crime and bail determination is made. This is for serious
felonies. If your were going to be arraigned, you would be held in jail
pending the arraignment.

In this case you will most likely have a hearing before a magistrate
who will determine your guilt or innocence, and the penalty if guilty
(most likely a fine)

Do you mean Worcester near Richmondville? Does CP have that many Special Agents outside of terminal / yards?

RGZ17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am posting this thread at the request of a
> friend who isn't a TO's member. He was traveling
> across New York on route 7 this afternoon and
> stopped to photograph a train stopped at
> Worchester, NY. He was stopped by a CP Rail
> Special Agent and cited for trespassing. He was
> given a notice to appear in court on Tuesday
> night. If he fails to appear a warrant will be put
> out for his arrest. Is this a common thing in New
> York? Has anyone else had a similar experience and
> if so what was the out come? One other thing to
> note is that there is no question that he was on
> CP property but nothing was posted. Lastly, please
> note that I am in California and am not familiar
> NY and CP policies.

I don't know if this is the same guy, because it has been a while, but in the early 1990s CP had a hard-ass special agent who was notorious for defining the CP right-of-way as being everything between the tracks and the road.

As for the short time between the citation date and a court appearance, I would definitely recommend contacting the court on Monday and inquiring further about whether the date can be continued or if this is the sort of thing that can be handled pay-by-mail.

New York Statute :

http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN0140.10_140.10.html

poffcapt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A ticket on Saturday, and appear in court on
> Tuesday? Wow! They must consider a trespassing
> offense more than being like a traffic ticket. I
> got nabbed by radar a couple of weeks ago, and I
> had 15 days to send the ticket in.
>
> However, when I was young and more foolish, and
> growing up in Vermont, I got picked up for
> speeding on the Taconic State Pkwy in NY. This
> would have been in the early 1960s. It was a
> Saturday. The NY State patrolman said, "Follow me,
> son."
>
> We went to the next exit, down a country road, and
> left up a long drive to a farmhouse. A little sign
> said, "XXXX XXXXXX" Justice of the Peace.
> "Afternoon, Your Honor," said the cop.
>
> "Howdy, John. I'll be with you in a sec. Go on
> back to the office."
>
> I was charged, the judge asked me how I pleaded. I
> tried to plead nolo contendre, but he said, "Nope,
> can't do that in this state, son. You are either
> guilty or not guilty. If you want to plead 'Not
> Guilty", I will have to hold you over in jail for
> trial. This is a long weekend, so first court
> session won't be until Tuesday. So what do you
> say, young man?"
>
> "Guilty, Your Honor," says I.
>
> "Okay, son. $15 plus court costs ($6.70, I think),
> cash only."
>
> I was back on the road again in about 30 minutes.
> Simpler times in those days. Do they still do that
> in NY?
>
> Barry


Pennsylvania had these "magistrate's courts" for years, until most were abolished in a cesspool of corruption in the 1980s.

I was picked up for driving four miles over the limit of 55 on US22 in the 1970s. Same as your case, but the JP was a barber. He was cutting hair when the trooper and I arrived.

Ten minutes and $30 later, reduced from $50 because I only had $35 in my pocket, I was on my way. No paperwork for me, though. Trooper said "the paperwork would be mailed" and I'd get my out of state MV points then.

Never did get the paperwork or points, and I didn't see any benefit to asking about them. Nice little racket, though.

RGZ17,

Need more details... Was the "trespasser" on the CP's ROW or just sitting on public property? like NY Rte 7? I am looking at Google Maps for Worecester, NY its just a little town with most public streets with grade crossing gates n bells. Something is off with the picture here... Since you stated "court hearing on a Tuesday night" Night?? Never heard of courts opening at nights even for a little town..

This whole story dosent even make any sense to me..

CR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/11 10:54 by CR6444.

CR6444 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RGZ17,
>
> Need more details... Was the "trespasser" on the
> CP's ROW or just sitting on public property? like
> NY Rte 7? I am looking at Google Maps for
> Worecester, NY its just a little town with most
> public streets with grade crossing gates n bells.
> Something is off with the picture here... Since
> you stated "court hearing on a Tuesday night"
> Night?? Never heard of courts opening at nights
> even for a little town..
>
> This whole story dosent even make any sense to
> me..
>
> CR


Many NJ municipal and traffic courts have hearings at night. It's for the convenience of the judge and prosecutor, who are often part time in the job, and saves the defendant from having to take a day off from work.

Back in the early 90's CP ageants would actually follow the trains out of Binghamton sometimes the whole way to Scranton or Oneonta i swear by that.

mjbobb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back in the early 90's CP ageants would actually
> follow the trains out of Binghamton sometimes the
> whole way to Scranton or Oneonta i swear by that.

They still do Mike. I got a summons back in 2006 near Scotia, NY. I was on private property with permission from the landowner whose property edged up to the ROW. I had been waiting for a Southbound for about an hour, had a decent view and good sunlight for CP's very first ES44AC leading. I'd followed a small gravel driveway about 1/8 of mile from the main road the landowners house was another 18th or so. .

About 10 minutes or so before the train came by, an SUV with CP markings pulled up to the side of the road, he sat for a minute behind my truck, presumably checking my plates. Then he walked out to me already carrying his ticketbook, so he had his mind made up before even getting out of the vehicle he was going to write the ticket. Proceeded to give me the riot act about being on CP Rail property, even after I pointed out to him that there was no signage anywhere nearby, AND that I was on private property with permission of the landowner.

Fortunately, the landowner also came down from his house on his ATV to see what was going on, and confirmed that he'd already given me permission to be there. The agent then tried to convince the landowner that he really hadn't give me permission, which thankfully, the old fellow stood his ground on. Then the officer's story changed by trying to tell the landowner that he had no right to give that permission since the ROW extended out 50 feet from the center of the track.

At any rate, the ticket he issued me was returnable in Scotia, and the court was in session in the early evening, about 6pm I think. I was one of 4 cases, and when the judge saw the ticket, he actually looked at me and said, "Let me guess train lover?" When I nodded in the affirmative, he dismissed the ticket and didn't even give the officer - who suprisingly showed up - a chance to speak his part of the story. If that cop had had daggers for eyes, pretty sure I'd have been face down in a ditch somewhere given the stare I had coming back at me.

I know of another person who had a summons issued to him right in Binghamton proper. He went to court to challenge it, and it was thrown out because the officer didn't show up to court.

I think much of the time, they write the ticket figuring most people will just call the court clerk to pay the fine rather than deal with the inconvenience of going to court. The handful of people that challenge it are probably seen as acceptable losses in their enforcement efforts.

I would like to see Retired_Chief's comments on this story.

For the most part, officers do a good job in tough situations. But what I have seen so far on this thread borders on harassment. There seems to be no interest on CP law enforcement's part to get the other side of the story, or to try to diffuse a situation with explanations about what law enforcement is trying to do, or what statutes might cover what the officer thinks gives him the right to proceed.

How about you folks in Canada or out in CP's Midwest operations? Do you have any of these problems with CP Police? Maybe it is something in the water in New York. I'm glad I don't rail fan the northeast anymore.

Barry Stone