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Eastern Railroad Discussion > Anyone seen Buffalo? Where'd it go?


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Date: 11/21/00 03:48
Anyone seen Buffalo? Where'd it go?
Author: BobE

Just heard on the toob that Buffalo had over two feet of snow yesterday. Anyone know just how bad rail traffic is being disrupted?

BobE



Date: 11/21/00 04:45
RE: Anyone seen Buffalo? Where'd it go?
Author: run8

The westbound LSL is no later than usual, and has passed through the worst of the storm. The eastbound, on the other hand, hasn't yet reached Buffalo, and is approaching three hours late. Since it's just reaching the real snow, it will be interesting to see how much more time it loses.



Date: 11/21/00 06:50
RE: Anyone seen Buffalo? Where'd it go?
Author: itstrue911

ive heard some csx this morning and last nite west of buffalo,i know that a Q115 and a Q117 are coming,dont be suprised to see this trains combined at either selkirk or syracuse



dave



Date: 11/21/00 06:57
RE: Anyone seen Buffalo? Where'd it go?
Author: k8dti

Just 2 feet? That's a dusting in that region! :-) Good gravy, think about what that would do to Cincinnati. People loot & pillage grocery stores if there is a chance of flurries.



Date: 11/21/00 08:41
RE: Anyone seen Buffalo? Where'd it go?
Author: RobR

Greetings!

Someone on the NSFans list posted a report that NS has declared Force Majeur (whatever that means) in the Buffalo area.

Rob



Date: 11/21/00 08:41
RE: Anyone seen Buffalo? Where'd it go?
Author: richs

What does "Force Majeure" mean with respect to delays in Buffalo?



Date: 11/21/00 08:58
RE: NS Detours
Author: Plantman

The NS detoured some trains. According to another list I subscribe to, NS 206 was routed to Conway and then east via the Pittsburgh line to Harrisburg. It should be getting a D&H recrew now for its journey north to Scranton, Binghamton and eventually to GTI interchange at Mohawk. Empty Johnson City coal hoppers normally operating west of Binghamton went east to NJ from Binghamton and will then head west on the Lehigh, Lebanon Valley, and Pittsburgh lines to the Monongha coal fields...



Date: 11/21/00 09:20
RE: Anyone seen Buffalo? Where'd it go?
Author: Kevin-D

k8dti wrote:
>
> Just 2 feet? That's a dusting in that region! :-) Good gravy,
> think about what that would do to Cincinnati.

Yea, I know. Its should be nothing to those guys....except for NS and their inferior infrastructure. Someone forget to fill the propane tanks? Can't afford Winters and their jet snow bolwers this year? Oh I forgot, they can't do that and impress investors at the same time.

Aside from that...cool...a coalie on the Delaware!!



Date: 11/21/00 11:43
Force majeure
Author: BigJohn

is a contractual term similar to "Act of God" except that it can also refer to man made conditions. Basically it probably means that since the delays are not their fault they will not be contractually liable for some or all of the timeliness or performance factors in some of the contracts. IANAL, and I don't have a copy of the contract but that is a nutshell description based on some contracts and transportation experience I've had. Generally it refers to unpredictable events, or conflicts with basic assumptions, although one would think that one would predict snow storms in the Buffalo area and take some contractual notice of their expected effect.



Date: 11/21/00 12:36
RE: Buffaloed in Buffalo
Author: toledopatch

They got 25 inches in 24 hours, on top of 15 inches they already had....

#49 left Toledo about 4-1/2 hours late today. I heard 206 with its Conway-bound crew getting instructions to wye their power at Fairlane because their leader was not cab-signal equipped.



Date: 11/21/00 12:47
RE: Buffaloed in Buffalo
Author: itstrue911

csx is running trains,i saw Q115 with 621/620 at 1205 and then about an hour later i caught another csx wb intermodal.


dave



Date: 11/21/00 13:09
RE: Buffalo News Article
Author: Kevin-D

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20001121/1001676.asp

Mentions a snow-induced derailment on the light rail line.

From the picture, it sure doesn't compare to '77, contrary to the correlation noted in the somewhat dramatic reporting. It appears the storm was made 'mentally worse' because it really snarled evening rush hour yesterday.



Date: 11/21/00 13:37
RE:Put a lid on Lake Erie
Author: roadrat

As long as Lake Erie is fluid and not ice covered, Buffalo is going to take a real pounding, week after week.

Does anyone remember the snow trains of early Conrail days?

Roadrat



Date: 11/21/00 13:42
RE:Put a lid on Lake Erie
Author: toledopatch

It isn't always Buffalo. The area to get pounded depends directly on the wind direction. Three years ago, Chardon OH (east of Cleveland) got 48 inches over a three to four day span, but Buffalo didn't get nearly as much from that storm.



Date: 11/21/00 14:49
RE: Force majeure
Author: BobE

BigJohn wrote:
>
Generally it refers to unpredictable
> events, or conflicts with basic assumptions, although one would
> think that one would predict snow storms in the Buffalo area
> and take some contractual notice of their expected effect.



IANAL either, but snow is predictable, snow damn near four feet deep isn't. In this case, force majeure not only applies, it is mandatory---not only can the trains not get through, the employees can't get to work, there's nowhere to spot cars in spurs that are covered to that depth and it all doesn't matter because the customers' plants are closed because their employees can't get to work either. The key element is that such a declaration prevents the customer from suing for damages for contractual non-performance, especially as it would be a pretty frivolous suit to try to nail a railroad for not delivering a car that you can't unload anyway. Customers outside Buffalo might not be so understanding, hence the necessity of the declaration.

Think of the analagous situation of a hurricane. You can see it coming for a week. And there isn't anything you can do about it.

Anyhow, I'm sure CSX has declared force majeure as well, so the poster above who ridiculed NS for lack of preparation probably shouldn't smugly assume that *only* NS is affected.

BobE



Date: 11/21/00 15:27
RE: Force majeure
Author: BigJohn

Yeah that much that quickly isn't something you would even abnormally expect. Being a fourth-generation Sunny Southern Californian, I expect we'ld reach that condition with only a couple of inches, since folks that left snow areas will have forgotten how to drive in it and the rest of us would be learning the hard way tying the streets up something fierce. But I'm not going to work at it. I'll just watch..



Date: 11/21/00 18:22
RE: Force majeure
Author: BobE

Last spring I was at the Cienega High Bridge east of Tucson and met a fellow foamer. We chatted for a bit and asked where each of us was from. Me, I'm Canadian, family moved south in '78 now in Ohio. Him, moved to San Diego from Buffalo a week after the '77 blizzard. He asked me why my family moved, but I didn't have to ask him. :-)

BobE



Date: 11/21/00 19:08
Grand Rapids as well
Author: MichiganMike

Just so everyone doesn't think the New Yorkers are the only ones who have it bad, Grand Rapids MI got 11 inches last night. Boy am I glad I moved to Detroit!

My drive along the Ohio Turnpike tomorrow ought to be loads of fun!



Date: 11/21/00 20:09
RE: Force majeure
Author: Kevin-D

BobE wrote:
>
> Anyhow, I'm sure CSX has declared force majeure as well, so the
> poster above who ridiculed NS for lack of preparation probably
> shouldn't smugly assume that *only* NS is affected.


I never assumed Beavis was not similarly affected.

I'm just one of those disappointed fans of the Tier that will continue to give Butthead the back of my hand until they come through with the 8 through trains a day, rain or sleet or snow or shine, they projected to the STB, polticians, legislators, shippers, customers, and the world.

The Altoona/Hollidaysburg thing, and the timing of activites to Shusters demise, is classic NS Bait-and-Switch. The Tier is just more of the same. All the result of business incompetence during the longest stretch of propserity our economy has ever seen.



Date: 11/21/00 22:49
CSX/CR and Buffalo snow
Author: INRD_2000

If CSXT hasnt done something stupid, They should be well off. They have plenty of electricaly heated switches, dragons, and a specialy ordered snow blowing machine on a swivel. They may get delayed, but I bet they will be MUCH better off the NS or the I-90/Thruway for that matter. Ive seen frontier hump cars even when it got REAL bad, and NS had allready packed it up and gone home! Course that was CR and not CSXT. Lets hope the dumb CSX management has done anything dumb with the snowfighting equipment!



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