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Eastern Railroad Discussion > CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub


Date: 08/17/12 09:28
CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: calumet

CSX has applied to the STB for a "perpetual non-assignable operating easement"
for the CN/GTW main between Elsdon and Munster, a distance of about 22 miles.
CN/GTW will continue to own the tracks but they will be maintained and
dispatched by CSX. CN/GTW trains will continue to use this segment on a limited
basis. CSX estimates that of the roughly 80 trains that pass through Dolton at
present, about 14 will be diverted to the Elsdon sub.

For more details use the link below and scroll down to document 232728. It's
very long and will take about 10 minutes to download even with a broadband
connection.

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/WebFilingDate?openform

Bill Gustason



Date: 08/17/12 09:43
Re: CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: Gateway97

Can you narrow down the location (state, part of state) you're talking about ? Thanks



Date: 08/17/12 09:55
CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: rantoul

Elsdon (near Clearing Yard, Evergreen Park/Chicago Illinois) and Munster Indiana. I think it is interesting that CN says they will continue to route some trains over this route...wonder if the EJ&E line doesn't provide the expected savings envisioned when CN said they would move all but a couple trains off the Elsdon line. I know the CSX has/is installed(ing) a connector just north of Blue Island, the double track to the north of the connector is 39-foot stick rail....wonder if the trains return before the stick rail is changed to ribbons? Thanks for the report.



Date: 08/17/12 10:34
Re: CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: dispr

A connection will also be built at Thornton Junction, Illinois in the SW corner which will allow Danville to Chicago trains to leave the UP at Thornton, travel up the Elsdon Sub to the BRC, bypassing Dolton and Yard Center a highly congested area.



Date: 08/17/12 11:16
Re: CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: Gateway97

Thanks for the addl. info.



Date: 08/17/12 12:14
Re: CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: ATSF100WEST

Whodathunkit? UP trains on the old Grand Trunk Western..... smdh

Bob

ATSF100WEST......Out



Date: 08/17/12 15:29
Re: CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: peoriarr1

This I think will mainly be for intermodal trains to brc and be able to get by CSX Barr Yard.



Date: 08/17/12 18:03
Re: CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: calumet

peoriarr1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This I think will mainly be for intermodal trains
> to brc and be able to get by CSX Barr Yard.

Not just trains to/from Bedford Park but also for general merch trains from Clearing. The planned SW quad connection at Thornton will eliminate some of the C&EI traffic trundling thru Dolton. Without the connection at Thornton, this deal would not make sense.

It's important to realize that CSX will have an easement--they didn't buy the route nor did they merely seek trackage rights. The easement gives them complete control of the route, so much so that CN/GTW trains will have trackage rights--that's right, trackage rights- over tracks it still owns (the application makes this quite clear). With that control comes the expense of maintaining and dispatching it, as well as paying for any capital improvements. No doubt that's why CN agreed to it; they avoid spending a lot of cash for a route that they will use on a minimal basis.



Date: 08/18/12 08:28
Re: CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: espeefan

I'm trying to picture where Munster, In. is. Is it by Wellsboro? Yes there is a new crossover installed just north of the cal sag bridge with plenty more in waiting. If I bring a train from 59th street yard (headed to North Baltimore, Oh.)and come down the hill and crossover to the
CN at Blue Island, where do I get back on home rails headed for ohio?



Date: 08/18/12 17:01
Re: CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: Ron

espeefan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm trying to picture where Munster, In. is. Is it by Wellsboro?

> Yes there is a new crossover installed just north of the cal sag bridge with plenty more in waiting.
> If I bring a train from 59th street yard (headed to North Baltimore, Ohio) and come down the hill and crossover to the
> CN at Blue Island, where do I get back on home rails headed for ohio?

I'm retired GTW/CN and not being familiar with the CSX north of Blue Island Tower - Junction, if I look at the map correctly, you would come south and pass by the BI Tower and swing east through Barr Yard, past Dolton and work your way east toward Indiana....correct?

When the CSX takes over the CN Elsdon Subdivision, it doesn't look like this will be in the routing to North Baltimore, Ohio. The CSX has had rights on the GTW/CN between Thornton Junction and Munster for years and years. Thornton Junction is where the GTW/CN crosses the UP line south of UP Yard Center Yard. Munster in just east of the Illinois/Indiana state line. This is where the CSX and Amtrak trains leave the GTW/CN and head south past Dyer en route to Indianapolis. The portion of this line between Munster and Dolton was removed many many years ago.

The Elsdon Subdivision routing will save the time crawling past Barr Yard and around the corner at Dolton onto the UP and then off the UP at Thornton Junction onto GTW/CN toward Munster. A connection at Thornton Junction in the southwest quadrant will allow the same trains to pass by Barr Yard and Dolton and go directly from Blue Island to Thornton Junction and then enter the UP there to go south on the UP.

The CSX now has a small industrial "complex" (if you can call it that) off Halsted just south of the GTW/CN main line. And they can get on the GTW/CN at CN Junction MP 23.2 and off at CJ MP 22.6.

My understanding is that the CN and CSX swapped some trackage around Memphis, Tennessee, and this what the CSX gets for whatever they gave the CN.

I also understood that the GTW/CN between Griffith and Munster would be pulled up after all of the CN/EJ&E connections have been completed. This section of trackage would then be deemed redundant and not used. There are no industries along this section.

Griffith is MP 36.1
Munster is MP 31.0
Thornton Junction is MP 25.2
Blue Island is MP 19.3
Hayford is MP 11.8
Elsdon is MP 8.7
Railport is MP 6.9

At Elsdon there is a connection into the south end of the ATSF/BNSF Corwith Yard.

Just for distance recognition, Wellsboro is MP 71.1

The last I knew there was still several local industries between Hayford and Railport handled by CN crews from Hawthorne Yard. They would leave Hawthorne Yard onto the BRC to Hayford and back the GTW/CN. I've been gone for almost 3 years now, but I'd think that the CN would try to keep the industry switching on this portion of the Elsdon Subdivision.

I hope this might be of some help.

Ron



Date: 08/18/12 21:16
Re: CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: espeefan

Thanks for the help.



Date: 08/18/12 23:04
Re: CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: slingshot2

Ron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My understanding is that the CN and CSX swapped
> some trackage around Memphis, Tennessee, and this
> what the CSX gets for whatever they gave the CN.
>
> I also understood that the GTW/CN between Griffith
> and Munster would be pulled up after all of the
> CN/EJ&E connections have been completed. This
> section of trackage would then be deemed redundant
> and not used. There are no industries along this
> section.
>
> Griffith is MP 36.1
> Munster is MP 31.0
> Thornton Junction is MP 25.2
> Blue Island is MP 19.3
> Hayford is MP 11.8
> Elsdon is MP 8.7
> Railport is MP 6.9
>
> At Elsdon there is a connection into the south end
> of the ATSF/BNSF Corwith Yard.
>
> Just for distance recognition, Wellsboro is MP
> 71.1
>
> Ron


Here's the download link to the STB application for the Tennessee trackage swap:

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7f93537688b8e5852573210004b318/8c59a9e781414df085257a590069b77f/$FILE/232729.PDF

And here's the direct download link for the 445 page Elsdon swap:

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7f93537688b8e5852573210004b318/28c366f64bbb7f7085257a59006ceb97/$FILE/232733.pdf

When the CN has finished with all their EJ&E Gary Hump Yard improvements watch for another trackage swap between these two; the B&O main from Wellsboro to Gary from CSX to CN and the GTW main from Wellsboro to Munster from CN to CSX with both parties being granted trackage rights over each others former trackage.



Date: 08/18/12 23:37
Re: CSX application to operate CN/GTW's Elsdon sub
Author: Ron

slingshot2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> When the CN has finished with all their EJ&E Gary Hump Yard improvements watch for another trackage swap between these two;
> the B&O main from Wellsboro to Gary from CSX to CN and the GTW main from Wellsboro to Munster from CN to CSX with both
> parties being granted trackage rights over each others former trackage.

I don't know about this.

One thing I learned about railroading a long time ago......Never say NEVER.

But with this idea..... What would the logic be behind something like this? Could very well benefit the CN, but they wouldn't need it. They've spent a ton of dollars to improve Griffith and Matteson, to get to and from Kirk Yard.

And where would the CSX go on the GTW/CN South Bend Subdivision between Wellsboro and Griffith? If things go as planned there's going to be about 6 miles of former roadbed with no rails between Griffith and Munster.

There's a huge bottleneck that was built into the GTW way back when.....a section of single track between Valparaiso and Sedley, Indiana. MP 57.3 to MP 50.4. and all uphill headed eastward.

Before the economy slowed down a few years ago, this section of track caused quite a few delays to track flow. Usually an underpowered eastbound that stalled. If you didn't currently have something like that to contend with.....why would you want to trade with somebody to get that?

I'm sure the CSX is operating a greater number of trains through this territory now and wouldn't want to buy into the delays that would come with it.

Even with the building of an Intermodal Terminal in the old Kingsbury Arsenal Yard, this just wouldn't seem like a smart idea.

I guess time will tell.

Ron



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