Eastern Railroad Discussion > Coal vs. EPA lawsuit?

Well I wonder if the coal, power, railroads, UMWA and some other unions should get together and form a class action lawsuit against Obama's EPA. That seems to me to be the only possible way stopping Obama and the EPA's war on coal. And if the power companies ever hope to be able to build new coal fired plants. Please chime in with your thoughts. Thank you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/12 14:49 by GTWMISteve.

What would be their basis to file the lawsuit?

dharris

Their best shot was yesterday at the ballot box.

BobE

Restraint of trade.

wjpyper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restraint of trade.

Wouldn't make it up the courthouse steps to file the claim.

If a regulation applies across an industry, it would be tough to argue that any one company is unduly harmed. Especially an industry like coal or like electric generation that has been regulated for over a hundred years, and is so closely regulated by multiple agencies and layers of state and national governments.

[I was interested to note that West Virgina Senator Joe Manchin, a Democrat, declined to endorse President Obama or campaign with him. Perhaps he and Jay Rockefeller, another WV Democrat, would cross the aisle on some coal related votes.]

Its all about the clean air-no emissions. As a person that works in the coal business we have had attacks for the last twenty years. The presidents past always seem to keep beating it back for another four years and so on. The president now is going to do what he said was going to do about the emissions and carbon tax. As far as the umwa taking a lawsuit against the EPA they are doing good to keep their own heads above water.

I also believe something must be done with the EPA and Obama or else we are in for some very rough times concerning the coal industry. The Sierra Club is another bullet for the coal industry too. This country has used coal for years and now there seems to be an all out war on the coal industry. It seems that tobacco kills more people than coal does but listening to the EPA you would not believe that one. The government tried to tax the hell out of tobacco products but that has not stopped Americans from chewing, smoking or snuff; heck a carton of cigarettes is sixty bucks. If the coal industry continues to come under intense pressure and scrutiny from the EPA something will have to give and I hope that when something gives it is not the loss of coal mining jobs (and jobs related to coal mining industry). Yahoo this morning listed the following done at exit polls yesterday: Only forty percent of voters feel the economy is getting better, only twenty five percent believe they are better off financially than they were four years ago and about fifty two percent believe the country is going in the wrong direction but yet he gets another four year lease. I hope Obama comes to his senses and eases up on the coal industry. I am very worried about the road this country will travel within the next two years; as that is when Obamacare is supposed to kick in. I hope Obama realizes that without coal over sixty percent of this country goes dark. Speaking of the alternative to coal, natural gas, isn't fracking one of the methods used to get the natural gas? The same fracking that some people here in Ohio, as well as nationwide, abhor? Matt Damon (Jason Bourne movies) is on the crusade to get fracking dismissed. I believe the government is becoming too involved in too much. Sorry to bore you fellow trainorder members but just my two cents worth...Good evening to all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/12 17:54 by Forever-Railfan-45.

The major problem for coal is natural gas, not the closing of old, inefficient, polluting power plants.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324073504578104961841689522.html

Even the coal companies concede the low price of natural gas is the big deal:

++Alpha Natural Resources will end operations at its Still House Branch Mine in Cumberland, Ky. Forty miners will be cut while another 40 workers will be added at other mines.

Alpha spokesman Rick Nida said many barriers stand in the way of being productive. "That includes coal-fired power plants closing, competition from low-priced natural gas, high rail rates. All of those things combine to make it economically non-competitive."

In February, Alpha slowed production at 10 Kentucky and West Virginia mines, according to the report. The company closed several Kentucky mines and slowed production at other mines in June that added up to 650 layoffs.++

What's weird is the number of mines that are now non union after the Bush tax cuts and have many safety issues because of the owners trying to squeeze the most profit out of their company. Now the EPA wants to put some small restrictions down and the companies are all freaking out because they won't be making a max profit. They should be complaining that the fracking gas/oil industry are hurting them, but they accepted their new EPA laws.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/working/entry/5813/fatalities_higher_at_non-union_mineslike_masseys_upper_big_branch/

Low natural gas prices will not last forever. Putting coal burning plants out of business alone would be a reason for a rise in price of natural gas. I heartily recommend that any plants built be easily converted to coal.

A lawsuit would be a waste of time and money. I concur with prior posts that a competitive market for energy is much of the problem that coal faces. Pollution ultimately is a political issue -- the EPA was created by a Republican administration, don't forget -- and yesterday's result implies that national policy will continue to disfavor coal. I happen to live in a state where the effects of acid rain that's mainly imported on wind from other states are substantial.

Lots of people die every year from Power Plant air pollution. It usually is in the form of a type of cancer. If one is upset at the lack of trains get over it. If it is jobs deal. The jobs will be made up in other non polluting jobs. It also comes down to cost. The power companies could put in the pollution controls the EPA wants and many power plants are doing that or were already made that way. The power companies could generally care less about your health. They want to chase the dollar. It is much easier to tell people you are closing due to it being to expensive to put in pollution controls then it is to say We are a good company and are willing to go the extra mile for peoples health and will be happy to put in pollution controls. Also as a railfan as the new pollution controls come in, more stuff will be shipped out by rail from the power plants in the form of heavy metal waste.

Low cost natural gas, lowered demand from overseas coal customers. Inefficient older coal fired plants.

That's the "war."

Dale

dbrcnw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Low cost natural gas, lowered demand from overseas
> coal customers. Inefficient older coal fired
> plants.
>
> That's the "war."
>
> Dale

Definitely, they're all parts of the puzzle.

One part that hasn't been mentioned is the probable accession of Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR) to the influential Senate Energy committee, where he will be the boss. As in overseeing the leases of federal lands for coal, oil, gas, timber, etc. He replaces the outgoing Jeff Bingaman (D-NM), who was long considered to be very friendly to the industries that lease government lands. Wyden, in contrast, is very concerned about global warming, pollution, and energy policy.

Wyden has made it very clear in numerous speeches that he is opposed to coal exports, and to natural gas exports. And, he's in favor of wind and hydro. I suspect coal exports will be on his list of things to consider...

peoriarr1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lots of people die every year from Power Plant air
> pollution.

Urban myth. Every year people die, and then a liberal activist group of social science majors with a name like "Really Concerned Real Goshdarn Scientists For the Protection of Women, Children, and Fuzzy Bunnies" take a portion that died from anything that is within a dozen degrees of separation of lung issues and claim they all died from evil coal/refineries/autos/villian of the day.


> derp derp derp

dbrcnw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Low cost natural gas, lowered demand from overseas
> coal customers. Inefficient older coal fired
> plants.
>
> That's the "war."
>
> Dale


That's like standing on a NJ beach and claiming that wind and rain are the only dangers from hurricanes.

darkcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> peoriarr1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lots of people die every year from Power Plant
> air
> > pollution.
>
> Urban myth. Every year people die, and then a
> liberal activist group of social science majors
> with a name like "Really Concerned Real Goshdarn
> Scientists For the Protection of Women, Children,
> and Fuzzy Bunnies" take a portion that died from
> anything that is within a dozen degrees of
> separation of lung issues and claim they all died
> from evil coal/refineries/autos/villian of the
> day.
>

Used to be OK to just dump pollution in the rivers, too. What the hell, the water will just carry it all away....

A history lesson for all: the mandates the EPA is enforcing was signed into law by George H.W. Bush with bipartisan support of both Democrats and Republicans, so you are looking at a lawsuit covering a two term Dem.-Clinton, a two term Rep.-GW Bush, and a soon two term Obama that neither one has repealled, and for the past four years I do not recall any legislation being enacted to reduce coal fired power plant emissions, why? because they where already enacted, remember Washington does nothing quick.

darkcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> peoriarr1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lots of people die every year from Power Plant
> air
> > pollution.
>
> Urban myth. Every year people die, and then a
> liberal activist group of social science majors
> with a name like "Really Concerned Real Goshdarn
> Scientists For the Protection of Women, Children,
> and Fuzzy Bunnies" take a portion that died from
> anything that is within a dozen degrees of
> separation of lung issues and claim they all died
> from evil coal/refineries/autos/villian of the
> day.
>
>
> > derp derp derp

Over the past 20+ years I've been looking into the literature on air pollution and public health. In many cases, the scientific evidence supports the views of citizens advocating for clean air. The following is a link to an American Heart Association assessment linking air pollution to heart diseases and death.

http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/55121/Evidence_growing_of_air_pollutions_link_to_heart_disease_death.html

Maybe you can easily dismiss the views of AHA professionals, but I won't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/12 20:02 by RuleG.

Interesting to note that not one of the previous posts has even mentioned coal miners affected by and being killed by black lung.

The coal is in the ground and will be there when the gas is gone and someone figures out how to extract the enegy from it at a competitive price. It is buried treasure waiting for an antidote.