Eastern Railroad Discussion > A police response attn: KevinD

I am posting this as I feel it needs to be said. In response to "Anyone being harassed?" from 10/15, I wish to share the following:

A few words from a law enforcement professional:

I am sorely disappointed by those of you who choose to lather yourselves
into a frezny about the current increase in security. Let me remind you of a
few facts.

1). Our country's transportation system was attacked leaving a death toll in
excess of 5,500.

2). We are currently experiencing a bioterrorist attack on various
government and media outlets.

3). We are dealing with a people who do not respect life, play by their own
rules and certainly don't give a damn about your railfanning plans.

So excuse me if me and my collegues are a bit on the cautious side. I assure
you, I know the law and Constitution implicitly. But you can also be sure
that anyone I see around any vulnerable facities (railroads especially) will
receive attention (which doesn't necessarily mean arrest). But I am getting
a bit tired of the people complaining about police (much like they did
before 9/11). I hoped people would remember what a dangerous time we live in
right now but some just can't seem to think of anyone but themselves.

I have a job to do and that is protect people. I take it seriously and would
lay down my life to do it. Anyone who knows me personally knows my character
and I am not the exception to the rule, I work with some of the finest, most
compassionate individuals I've had the pleasure to know. Law enforcement
officers respect the law and citizens. So if you get stopped, my advice is
to be courteous, apologetic and humble.

Anything less than that shows utter disrespect for every citizen who lost
their lives that day. Hopefully, we will be through this heightened state
soon and can return to some normalicy. If not, bear with it, our national
security demands your patience and compliance.

With respect,

Lt. Thomas S. Wells aka N8CSX
City of Springdale Ohio Police

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and for the work you do. Stay safe.

Well said Tom, just as I said on the other board and I hope you and your brother/sister officers are careful and safe during this time of watchfulness.

Mr Wells,

I appreciate the scrutiny of suspicious individuals, however I think a lot of the people here get frustrated by being harassed on public property. I was harassed once myself while I was still in my car on a public street in Rushville, Indiana & I was really taken aback by it. The good news is that once Amtrak's Cardinal blasted through town, he must have believed me when I told him I was waiting on a train & he left me alone after that.

I enjoy watching trains trackside & photographing trains also. I do not climb on railroad equipment, I do not tamper with railroad property & I do not present myself as a hazard to crews or moving equipment. It's a little disconcerting to hear of the possibility of being arrested for safely pursuing my hobby. That is the real issue, I do believe.

I must make a note that there are bad railfans & there are bad cops, & maybe the problems arise when the two collide. I will be going away for the weekend to pursue my hobby of photographing trains safely & without breaking any laws. If I am approached by any lawman, I will be polite & forthcoming with my reasons for 'hanging out in the middle of nowhere'. I can only hope that I would get the same respect back & be allowed to continue my hobby safely & in a law-abiding manner.

P

P.S. Am I still allowed to hang out at the Glendale station parking lot? I know, I know, not your jurisdiction. ;)

Hi P,

I certainly appreciate your concerns. I am of the crowd who believes, albeit with more vigilance, we should go on with our lives to the fullest extend possible. Please don't forget that the majority of police (just like alot of our non-railfan friends) find it hard to understand why you would be out "chasing trains"; especially in the middle of the night in Rushville.

No one wants to be part of the next community to be caught with their pants down during a terrorist attack. Secondly, by the nature of our profession, we are supposed to be curious and not necessarily take what people say to us as "o-kee, do-kee". If we were like that, we truly would resemble the Hollywood cop image.

And to answer your last question, Glendale is an neighbor of my community and, yes, you can railfan there. The Chief is quite a foamer, himself (member of the NKP Historical Society). My advise, if your going to be railfanning at night, be preemptive. Call the local police first and let them know who you are and what you are doing. That goes a----long way towards developing their trust.

We are in the risk business and unfortunately, right now, business is good.

Happy safe fanning,

Tom Wells, N8CSX

First of all my thousands of thanks for putting your life on the line everyday. I believe that you and your brothern and sisters would do anything to protect me any day of the year. While photographing trains I have never had any problems talking with law enforcment officials. I've been approached by many including Toledo, OH, Lima, OH, Michigan State Police, Amtrak Police, Conrail Police, US Seceret Service and others. Since I have never before broken any laws while chasing I have never had any problems with any of these officers. The worst I ever had was a MSP officer who thought it was strange that I was photographing trains. But as I have always said they have a job too do and I need not make it any more difficult. As always be safe out there! And if I happen to make it your neck of the woods look out for the 92 Crown Vic from Michigan (X-Livingston County Sheriff).

Based on some of the commentary I've read, I guess I'm part of a small minority here. I've never had a problem with any officer: CSX, NS, Amtrak, state troopers or city/county. Not before or after 9-11. They've got a job to do and I for one am not going to give them any lip. That's a real good way to make yourself very unwelcome. I suspect that both railroads have my tag number in their computers and they know exactly what my vehicle looks like. That's fine with me. I might need them some time and I don't want anyone holding a grudge because I shot off my big mouth.

My> advise, if your going to be railfanning at night, be
> preemptive. Call the local police first and let them know who
> you are and what you are doing. That goes a----long way towards
> developing their trust.


ABSOLUTELY not! dispatchers have plenty enough to do without adding calls from the railfan community about when they going out to watch
trains. This advise is typical for a cop that has no clue what his dispatchers do, and how busy they are. DO NOT pester your local dispatchers with this, if you feel the need to tell the local police,
write a letter to the chief.


Joe Fehr
MN 911 Dispatcher

In my area(St Paul MN) I've been approached 5 times since the Sept 11th attacks. Prior to this I was never approached in 20 years of fanning. Each time I was approached by railroad security(THEY ARE NOT COPS in Minnesota) and questioned. They were polite 4 of the times, the 5th the guy obviously was having a bad day. Each time I was told to be careful and not to trespass, I said thank you and that was it. Now if I had been trespassing or commiting theft or interfering with operations then yeah I'd hope an arrest would be made, but if you're responsible and not breaking the law there is no reason for you to be arrested or have the fear of being arrested. After all this is STILL the United States and we still have a Constitution that protects all of us.

Sometimes I think those that are here saying I was harrassed or I
was pestered by a cop while fanning would say that about a cop no matter what the situation is.

JF

N8CSX wrote:
>
(snip)
if your going to be railfanning at night, be
> preemptive. Call the local police first and let them know who
> you are and what you are doing. That goes a----long way towards
> developing their trust.
(snip)


A variation on this approach worked for me. We're shooting a documentary that requires a lot of time trackside (gee, what a sacrifice for me.) Figuring that three people with a huge camera and a production truck would bring on a visit from a special agent at some point, I went to the local UP office, introduced myself to the local yard boss and told him of our project.

Three times during our conversation, he said he appreciated that I came in to let him know what we're doing. As long as we stay on public property, he said, he would work with us to let us know what's coming.

It's good that the folks in this thread seem to be reasonable people who can see and respect the other guy's point of view. I wish all posters were like that.

--
Steve Holmes

while railfanning in Newport VT, and I'm pleased it was a small part of our national security effort.

Years ago, I was looking to photo the last ops of the CP's RS-2 switcher based at newport. It switched the Gold Seal plan. Back then, the CP also ran its thru train with RS-18s. CP's track crosses the border two miles up line.

Got my roster shots on Sunday morning, checked out the CP station, and waited for the CP. Few minutes later, the chief was at my ar asking for license and ID, why was I here, etc. I explained what I was doing, showed him my log book. He told me strangers stand out here in town, was I expecting anybody?

Nope. Of he went, although he kept an eye on me. CP came, I went. Came back Monday to photo the switcher in operation.

Four years later, the same chief was on the front page of the Wall Street Journal for arresting three Iranians illegally crossing over to the US. They had explosives, and were met by a legal, who had driven up to meet them. They had walked down the track from Canada with backpacks of explosives. The WSJ's point was our national security depended on one guy in a little town. It was a good point in 1983, and a better point now.

So when the cop asks you for ID, don't assume he's out to bust your $#%^. If any number of people did a little better job (check carry ons a little beter, check for warrants after Atta's accident, etc) maybe there would be 6,000 people still alive, going to work, etc.

My point was/is that I don't like security and police personnel who view their badges as licenses to be *ssholes. Reasonable requests for ID and purpose I don't mind, but I would get very bent out of shape if someone threatened me with a trespassing arrest when I wasn't trespassing; same with threatened arrest for loitering or mopery with intent.

In the many years I've been watching, I was only accosted once, in a situation where I was much younger and clearly in the wrong. A 'Thank you, I'll leave now' was all it took to resolve the situation.

VunderBob

I believe the railroad police have authority on all railroad properties, regardless of the state. I understand that at least the class 1's have what amounts to a federal charter permitting and authorizing their powers.

Can't speak for anyone else, but on those rare occasions when local or railroad police have asked what I was doing in a given area, I've always just said, "photographing trains", and that was the end of it. They've always been polite to me, and I to them. I'm certainly not going to begrudge someone doing their job.

It's unrealistic in the present climate to think that police will not pay increased attention to unknown persons at trackside. Keep that in mind and everything should be fine.

N8CSX wrote:

> I am not the exception to the rule, I work with some of the
> finest, most compassionate individuals I've had the pleasure to
> know.

I don't understand why my comments directed at a minority few in your profession bring on such a response from the mainstream. If you are not in the minority AND THEREFORE NOT A PART OF THE PROBLEM, then let it be.



> Law enforcement officers respect the law and citizens. So if you
> get stopped, my advice is to be courteous, apologetic and humble.


I never advocated anything else. In response to those who concluded things have changed forever, I was just affirming that the procedure will run its course, and cannot continue forever. We won't allow it. If such assertions hurt your feelings, there's nothing I can do about it.

I do hope that law enforcement takes their own advice and is equally courteous, apologetic, and humble when they realize they made a mistake by detaining non-threatening people. If you wanna get it, you gotta give it.

N8CSX wrote:

> Please don't forget that the majority of police (just like alot of
> our non-railfan friends) find it hard to understand why you would
> be out "chasing trains"; especially in the middle of the night in
> Rushville.

I'd like to dig a little more into why this is the case? How come activities such as train watching or airplane watching or bus watching is such a foreign concept to so many on the beat? Its no different than some guy who watches race cars, yet law enforcement is so unprepared for reaching conclusions that such activities are normal when it comes to trains, busses or trucks. Is it nothing more than a training or awareness failure?



> No one wants to be part of the next community to be caught with
> their pants down during a terrorist attack.

Thats true, but the embarrasment potential for municipal employees is no where near a sufficient reason to exercise certain methods. When anyone's job stability or municipal image becomes a function of methods, the result has almost a "third world dictatorship" quality to it.

Dear Joe,

What's your problem, sounds like you have the attitude, not the "typical cop". Where I live, agencies have their own inhouse clerks and those that don't have direct call in via cell phone. I work in a very busy Cincinnati suburb. Please don't forget that you are a public servant. If you actual got 3 calls a year from railfans and were so busy that you couldn't give them the PD number you need to reevalute what you do for a living.

I supervise second shift in a retail infested suburb and would welcome that kind of info. Sorry bout that chip on your shoulder.

Tom

Kevin,

After replying to your last one, I'll reply here in public. You did not hear the message. A cops job is not to understand hobbies, it is to protect citizens, first and foremost. I realize some people (unlike the vast majority who have replied to my post)will never understand the concept of policing. All of my cop collegues know and understand that I am a railfan, but just as your non-railfan friends do, they rib me about it (good naturedly, of course).

I also lament that there are those who don't understand that a hobby is a sourse of stress relief, not a mission to be understood. I could care less who understands my hobby, IT'S MINE.

Regarding your comment about allowing ourselves to sink to a third world standard by condoning rights abuses, you again missed what I said. I merely state what those above have; you accomplish more with a friendly, cooperative attitude than the ever-popular "look copper, I know my rights here, piss off" one.

I posted this to help those not in the police profession understand where we come from and with a railfan point of view. I realize I will always have to put up with those who "know better" or choose to belittle others to look good.

Hey, we're in America, that's what free speech is all about!

Tom

N8CSX wrote:
>
> Kevin,
>
> A cops job is not to understand hobbies, it is to protect citizens, first and foremost.

Part of that protection function IS awareness, so that citizens are not hauled in or detained unnecessarily.

N8CSX wrote:
>
> Dear Joe,
>
> What's your problem,

My problem is that you're suggesting making more unreasonable work for me. After my 14 years of doing this job I think I know what is reasonable. Where does the line get drawn then? If cops tell fans to call the dispatcher when they are going to be out chasing trains, who else is going to be next. You said it yourself, it's not your job to understand hobbies, but to protect the public. In the past 5 weeks my callload has increased almost 55%, almost all of these calls are people who are jittery, or reporting susp activity based on the persons racial "look", and the dreaded susp package containing anthrax. My dept uses the cell phones for follow up kind of work, not the actual reporting of activity. That's in part becouse the calls to the cells are not recorded.

Yes I am a public servant, and damm proud of it, but there comes a point where people need to use some common sense. Your suggestion lacked that. As a ranking officer your judgement in this case is
suspect.

Joe Fehr