Eastern Railroad Discussion > What it means to be a railfan - train symbols

Symbols are not essential to enjoy railfanning. Period. Saying that "too often fans are content just to show "pretty engine" pics" is a slight to the vast majority of fans. It will be a sad, sad day indeed when symbols become a requirement for railfanning.

I have enjoyed railfanning all of my life and only now am I attempting to learn the symbols. It certainly adds an interesting dimension to the hobby, but it is by no means essential.

This is glass-half-empty railfanning. Posts without symbols provide a wealth of information, for example providing info on prime photo locations, the type and level of activity that one might expect to see, how easy it is to fan there (police, traffic), etc. They can also serve as a heads up so long as a time and direction are provided.

Why do posters keep using exclusionary language like this? I know it's a vocal minority, but this philosophy seems to run through too many of the conversations here. I have a great deal of respect for those (few) railfans that have a comprehensive knowledge of train symbols, but by essentially stating that posts without symbols are a waste of time is wrong.

Remember, there was a day when you knew nothing about railroading. Between then and now many people shared their knowledge with you. Treat the ones who are learning now as you would want to be treated.

PLERR Wrote:
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> Symbols are not essential to enjoy railfanning.
> Period. Saying that "too often fans are content
> just to show "pretty engine" pics" is a slight to
> the vast majority of fans. It will be a sad, sad
> day indeed when symbols become a requirement for
> railfanning.
>
> I have enjoyed railfanning all of my life and only
> now am I attempting to learn the symbols. It
> certainly adds an interesting dimension to the
> hobby, but it is by no means essential.
>
> This is glass-half-empty railfanning. Posts
> without symbols provide a wealth of information,
> for example providing info on prime photo
> locations, the type and level of activity that one
> might expect to see, how easy it is to fan there
> (police, traffic), etc. They can also serve as a
> heads up so long as a time and direction are
> provided.
>
> Why do posters keep using exclusionary language
> like this? I know it's a vocal minority, but this
> philosophy seems to run through too many of the
> conversations here. I have a great deal of respect
> for those (few) railfans that have a comprehensive
> knowledge of train symbols, but by essentially
> stating that posts without symbols are a waste of
> time is wrong.
>
> Remember, there was a day when you knew nothing
> about railroading. Between then and now many
> people shared their knowledge with you. Treat the
> ones who are learning now as you would want to be
> treated.

Thank you!
I was all set to respond to the comment you responded to, but was concerned that maybe I was alone in not giving a rat's backside about that a train's symbol is. It simply does not matter to me! I do not have any way of determining what a particular train's symbol is anyway. I don't have a scanner ... as a matter of fact, I don't even get out railfanning very often.
If someone wants to include the symbol, fine and dandy ... but don't take sideways cheap shots at those who don't.
Rant over.

Will MacKenzie
Dundas, ON

Great subject, thanks for courageously opening that up.

Not all individuals have a scanner, money to purchase a scanner, let alone, have gas in the car to go out railfanning whenever they please.

Although it's nice to have the symbol & details, it's generally an interest in locomotives and/or photography that gets people out, not the specifics.

Sometimes it's just nice to see photos, when sometimes it's hard for some to get out.

- Denny, Lakewood, OH



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/14 08:42 by RAILWATCH.

Every one has their own opinion. My opinion is symbols are important, especially if something funky is on a train. People like to know the symbol so than can listen for it or chase it. Just my thoughts

Posted from Android

Ohiorailfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every one has their own opinion. My opinion is
> symbols are important, especially if something
> funky is on a train. People like to know the
> symbol so than can listen for it or chase it. Just
> my thoughts
>
> Posted from Android

i believe the original poster's opinion was for the simple fact of taking photos for HIMSELF ... not having to relay info ... which i'm sure he believes there are enough people on here that will do that do deed but for sheer hobby aspect for his own hobby image taking purposes he doesn't need to know the symbol

Symbols are nice to known but I can enjoy the pics without them.

I've been a symbol-follower virtually since I started railfanning. I like knowing more about the traffic flows and operating patterns on the railroad, and understanding symbols helps with that. Having a radio and knowing symbols also gives me opportunities for photographs that I would otherwise miss -- most notably, catching unusual train movements or off-schedule trains on less-busy rail lines -- and furthermore I prefer to have that information available for writing photo captions or articles about what I have seen.

But that level of detail isn't for everybody, and if other folks are content to say, "Here's an eastbound freight train at Johnson Falls," that's fine, too. If I happen to have seen the same train and know its symbol, I may include that information in a comment, but feel free to ignore me if you don't care.

What I do find irritating are folks who habitually include incorrect symbol information. If you're going to bother with symbols at all, do what you can to get them right. The most chronic example of this is the mis-writing of CSX's symbols for Amtrak trains that have two digit numbers -- and no, I don't care what it sounds like on the radio. That example is one that probably is harmless for trackside railfanning, but in other cases, wrong information is worse than no information. There are plenty of people here who are full of this sort of information and ready and willing to help others understand it, though, so the learning opportunities abound.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/14 08:58 by toledopatch.

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ohiorailfan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Every one has their own opinion. My opinion is
> > symbols are important, especially if something
> > funky is on a train. People like to know the
> > symbol so than can listen for it or chase it.
> Just
> > my thoughts
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> i believe the original poster's opinion was for
> the simple fact of taking photos for HIMSELF ...
> not having to relay info ... which i'm sure he
> believes there are enough people on here that will
> do that do deed but for sheer hobby aspect for his
> own hobby image taking

purposes he doesn't need to


Like I said "everyone has their own opinion"
> know the symbol

I fully concur. I like the ones that had nicknames (e.g. Super C, Blue Streak, Milk Can Special, etc.) but as for the actual symbols.....I agree, if you know it, fine, if you don't, that's also fine. Having said that, quite possibly the most entertainment I've witnessed while railfanning occurred on the Cassandra overlook one time when two guys got into a serious argument over whether "64J" had gone by. The guy arguing that it hadn't passed kept saying "you'd smell it if it had."

Keep it going guys, I like the discussion, that comment was not made by accident...lol. Just curious to see where people stand. My comment is in no way meant to slight, only to compliment a newer fan for making the effort. One of the strengths of TO is for people to railfan and enjoy the hobby as they see fit. So to each his/hers own.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/14 09:10 by PCTZ.

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i believe the original poster's opinion was for
> the simple fact of taking photos for HIMSELF ...
> not having to relay info ... which i'm sure he
> believes there are enough people on here that will
> do that do deed but for sheer hobby aspect for his
> own hobby image taking purposes he doesn't need to
> know the symbol



My post is in defense of any and all railfans on this site who are made to feel like they are less of a fan for not knowing the symbol. Every photo relays info, whether it has a symbol or not. Railfanning is a vibrant and diverse hobby that encompasses myriad aspects of trains, railroads, railroading, and the world around it.

Well, being deaf, no scanner for me hence no symbols either. All that matters to me is the engine number.

Posted from iPhone

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I happen to have seen the same train
> and know its symbol, I may include that
> information in a comment, but feel free to ignore
> me if you don't care.

I have no intention of commenting on every response, but I do want to highlight this one.

What toledopatch has mentioned here is important. TO is a community. A post is a conversation. What I appreciate is the feeling that I can rely on experienced TO members like toledopatch to contribute more to my story if they choose to. That's a healthy conversation and it's what we need more of.

PLERR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> toledopatch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If I happen to have seen the same train
> > and know its symbol, I may include that
> > information in a comment, but feel free to
> ignore
> > me if you don't care.
>
> I have no intention of commenting on every
> response, but I do want to highlight this one.
>
> What toledopatch has mentioned here is important.
> TO is a community. A post is a conversation. What
> I appreciate is the feeling that I can rely on
> experienced TO members like toledopatch to
> contribute more to my story if they choose to.
> That's a healthy conversation and it's what we
> need more of.

+1

sometimes a symbol is helpful for determining where a train might go next, or whether it has a work stop ahead somewhere.

for example, here in NJ, when a train acknowledges the defect detector at Middlesex NJ, that will cue you whether it may be heading south on the CSX Trenton Line, west on the NS Lehigh Line, or heading into work the yard.

If you're ten miles away, that's really helpful info to have. And maybe info for people up the line who may read your post (the Q409 has the NS bar code unit or a Belle on it, or some other unusual event)

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> What I do find irritating are folks who habitually
> include incorrect symbol information. If you're
> going to bother with symbols at all, do what you
> can to get them right. The most chronic example of
> this is the mis-writing of CSX's symbols for
> Amtrak trains that have two digit numbers -- and
> no, I don't care what it sounds like on the radio.
> That example is one that probably is harmless for
> trackside railfanning, but in other cases, wrong
> information is worse than no information. There
> are plenty of people here who are full of this
> sort of information and ready and willing to help
> others understand it, though, so the learning
> opportunities abound.


Score! I love it when people tell me that "PO" is for passenger operations! Same thing happens with NS high and wide movements.

With regard to the OP, do whatever you like, it is your hobby! The same thing happens with modeling a lot; people try to tell others how to enjoy the hobby. However, I don't think anyone should get defensive if you do not include a symbol and someone asks. For many of us, the operations are much more interesting than the trains. Staying interested in the operations keeps me from focusing on the sometimes monotonous locomotive lash ups out there, and I like GEs, too!

Great post.

There have been many posts on here that state things like 'NS 57N is departing Conway with a heritage unit at 8am' with no other info. I have been attacked, although mildly, for suggesting that the poster include more information such as where this train goes and the routing. I have seen many responses such as 'Google is your friend' or simply 'look up the symbol'. This strikes me as an elitist attitude that is designed to make the poster feel important and more knowledgable than the rest of us and I find it disappointing to say the least.

I don't have the desire to know all of the train symbols and it feels like work to look up a symbol every time I want more info - however - if I know the VGN heritage unit is leading a train to Knoxville from Belleview, I can surmise that it likely will go down the Dayton District past my house and I can keep an eye out for it. If the symbol is included, then that is bonus information as if I turn on my scanner, I can listen for the symbol. If not, I can still know in general when it may pass.

P Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great post.
>
> There have been many posts on here that state
> things like 'NS 57N is departing Conway with a
> heritage unit at 8am' with no other info. I have
> been attacked, although mildly, for suggesting
> that the poster include more information such as
> where this train goes and the routing. I have
> seen many responses such as 'Google is your
> friend' or simply 'look up the symbol'. This
> strikes me as an elitist attitude that is designed
> to make the poster feel important and more
> knowledgable than the rest of us and I find it
> disappointing to say the least.
>

I'm a symbol-junkie like some others, and appreciate it when symbols are included, but obviously, as has been hammered-out already, it's certainly not a requirement (or even possible). A train symbol can add 'context' to a train, like where it's going and where it came from. Those of us on T.O. who are very interested in the operations side of things like that sort of stuff.

What 'P' wrote here is very good. If you're attempting to give a heads-up about a particular train, and you know the symbol AND know where that symbol goes to/from, include the to/from in your heads-up post. If you're posting photos you shot a couple of days ago, perhaps the to/from aren't as important, though they'd still be helpful.

Symbols are NICE to have, but not necessary in my opinion, and nobody should have to take garbage for NOT having them. A lot of the information and pictures I post here is is very often things that I stumbled across while making runs for my job, or on the way to and from work, and while I have two scanners, I don't ALWAYS have one on, even though there is always one in my camera bag. I DO try to always provide which line I am talking about and a direction and time if relevant, I know that is a big help to others. I have never been a big symbol person in the past, but I AM putting more emphasis on it going forward, just to enhance my own railfanning experience. The important thing is, being a railfan means different things to different people, and the amount of or lack of "insider information" that they choose to share is up to them, and not us. Trackside watcher or computer screen watcher, photographer or not, film VS digital VS slides, railfan park or not, scanner or no scanner, what matters is the enjoyment we get out the hobby, and we should all be able to respect how others participate, even if we don't agree with it. I can't figure out the guys still shooting film to save my life, but it's a free country (or it WAS), and the important thing is that they are shooting trains and perhaps sharing their bounty with us, because in the end, that's all that matters.

This is a great post. I'm one of those that don't know
the symbols. I was making good strides in learning them
but found out I was spending more time trying to
learn them than watching the trains. Sometimes I'll hear
them on the scanner but always forget to write them down.
Other times I just plain can't understand what they are
saying or don't hear it.

When I'm in benching mode I never reveal my locations and
always take the numbers off the trains I post. When I'm in
railfanning mode anything goes and I'll share the world if
anyone asks. I do what works for me and that's listening to
the scanner for any activity and working the signals. I narrow
it down from there. I get my fair share of trains and while I
don't know the symbols and other info I still have a great time
and wouldn't trade it for the world!


Jay

ARandall70 Wrote:
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> Score! I love it when people tell me that "PO" is
> for passenger operations!

That became so pervasive that it appeared that way on Wikipedia for a while, attributed to a Web site that also "explained" that PO stood for passenger operations. I fixed it on Wiki and notified the Web site owner of the error, and he said something to the effect of, "That's what people told me."