Eastern Railroad Discussion > C&FE restoring 40 MPH speeds

http://www.rtands.com/index.php/freight/shortline-regional/cfe-takes-on-track-project-to-improve-freight-congestion.html?channel=275
Surprising we never hear of CSX, which leases the line to C&FE, showing any interest in running any of its train over this railroad. I believe CSX's B&O line between Willard and Chicago is nearly as congested as NS' Chicago Line.

Andy

twropr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.rtands.com/index.php/freight/shortline-
> regional/cfe-takes-on-track-project-to-improve-fre
> ight-congestion.html?channel=275
> Surprising we never hear of CSX, which leases the
> line to C&FE, showing any interest in running any
> of its train over this railroad. I believe CSX's
> B&O line between Willard and Chicago is nearly as
> congested as NS' Chicago Line.
>
> Andy

major factor impacting your statement >>> passenger trains ...

is the line unsignaled dark territory west of Crestline ??? ...

i also find it fascinating that a bunch of rail non management rail enthusiasts which includes railroaders and non railroaders alike figured out when it took place that the downgrading of the former PRR Ft Wayne route would be a detrimememt to east-west Chicago-East Coast rail transportation and just about everyone involved in a conversation regarding this subject predicted the revival of this line ...

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/15 12:34 by Out_Of_Service.

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
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> is the line unsignaled dark territory west of
> Crestline ??? ...
>

Almost... Dark territory is west of Bucyrus. A couple of very long blocks between CP-EAST COLSAN and CP-WEST CREST.

Hard to believe less than 12 months ago the Oracle of Coshocton looked down from his ivory towers on Easton Way and couldn't get rid of the CFE fast enough.... Look where we are today. It helps when someone else is footing the bill to make a dent into at minimum ten years of Railgenrica/G&W Band-Aid patches.

> i also find it fascinating that a bunch of rail
> non management rail enthusiasts which includes
> railroaders and non railroaders alike figured out
> when it took place that the downgrading of the
> former PRR Ft Wayne route would be a detrimememt
> to east-west Chicago-East Coast rail
> transportation and just about everyone involved in
> a conversation regarding this subject predicted
> the revival of this line ...
>
> Posted from Android

I find it fascinating that the above mentioned "experts" would have wasted 10's of millions of dollars on maintaining track capacity that clearly wasn't needed for 30 years.

What separates railroad managers from the "experts" is that the railroad managers are answerable to the stockholders, they have a duty to use the money that they are entrusted with wisely. Which is the case here, the route was preserved and the local customers were able to get service. This was done in a financially responsible manner at a level keeping with the demand for capacity. The line is not being revived, it was never shut down.

Now that capacity is growing short reinvestment is being made in the line to make it more suitable for the demands to be placed on it.

trainman630 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I find it fascinating that the above mentioned
> "experts" would have wasted 10's of millions of
> dollars on maintaining track capacity that clearly
> wasn't needed for 30 years.
>
> What separates railroad managers from the
> "experts" is that the railroad managers are
> answerable to the stockholders, they have a duty
> to use the money that they are entrusted with
> wisely. Which is the case here, the route was
> preserved and the local customers were able to get
> service. This was done in a financially
> responsible manner at a level keeping with the
> demand for capacity. The line is not being
> revived, it was never shut down.
>
> Now that capacity is growing short reinvestment is
> being made in the line to make it more suitable
> for the demands to be placed on it.

That's entirely fine...if the folks who make the decisions don't make the short-sighted and irreversible decision of abandoning and removing the track instead of letting it turn to Class 0 or 1.

TAW

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> trainman630 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I find it fascinating that the above mentioned
> > "experts" would have wasted 10's of millions of
> > dollars on maintaining track capacity that
> clearly
> > wasn't needed for 30 years.
> >
> > What separates railroad managers from the
> > "experts" is that the railroad managers are
> > answerable to the stockholders, they have a
> duty
> > to use the money that they are entrusted with
> > wisely. Which is the case here, the route was
> > preserved and the local customers were able to
> get
> > service. This was done in a financially
> > responsible manner at a level keeping with the
> > demand for capacity. The line is not being
> > revived, it was never shut down.
> >
> > Now that capacity is growing short reinvestment
> is
> > being made in the line to make it more suitable
> > for the demands to be placed on it.
>
> That's entirely fine...if the folks who make the
> decisions don't make the short-sighted and
> irreversible decision of abandoning and removing
> the track instead of letting it turn to Class 0 or
> 1.
>

Which almost happened.

Had Conrail not decided around 1993/94 to get involved in Triple Crown, which resulted in the Crestline terminal's construction and the operation of RoadRailer trains on the Ft Wayne Line between Fort Wayne and Crestline, the ex-PRR main was targeted for abandonment in sections between Fort Wayne and Bucyrus. How fortuitous.

Snore....zzzzzzzzzzz

These threads are becoming so common that it's white noise.

Conrail downgraded the line under Crane, ripping out the east bound main in the 1980's. Long before arm chair operations mangers could spew forth knowledge on the "internets". Reason, no one wanted PC version 2.0...and Conrail was not far from it. Crane took up 25% of Conrails main tracks that were not needed...bold...but it worked.

The line remained in place to serve Amtrak, locals and grain trains,. Once Amtrak left, so did the block signals. As Patch mentioned, the line was slated to be abandoned east of Dunkirk, Ohio. Plans had a connections going in at Dunkirk to the Toledo Branch. East of Dunkirk, to Upper or Bucyrus the line would have returned to nature.

Enter Triple in 1994-95 (I lived in Ada at the time) and the line survives to 1999 and the CR split...

CSX's only comment on acquiring the line was that "there isn't a curve to be seen"...and soon NS started running traffic over the line as a safety valve in the years immediately after the merger. I saw one through CSX train over the line.

I guess I'm not sure what the big deal is, we are simply seeing NS bring a few trains back...the good news for communities is that the work is rebuilding long forlorned grade crossings that swallow cars and some minor economic development benefits....

CG Tower



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/15 17:17 by CGTower.

Conrail decision makers were NOT wise people. Sorry, our Monday Morning quarterbacking clearly shows their poor analysis

I thought CSX ran a grain train from Hana, In all the way to Crestline?

Posted from Android

Let's not also forget that NS bought west end of the line to use a slower traffic bypass for the NKP back in 1994 that gets us the position on NS having trackage rights now.

CGTower Wrote:


> The line remained in place to serve Amtrak, locals
> and grain trains,. Once Amtrak left, so did the
> block signals. As Patch mentioned, the line was
> slated to be abandoned east of Dunkirk, Ohio.
> Plans had a connections going in at Dunkirk to the
> Toledo Branch. East of Dunkirk, to Upper or
> Bucyrus the line would have returned to nature.
>
> Enter Triple in 1994-95 (I lived in Ada at the
> time) and the line survives to 1999 and the CR
> split...
>
> CSX's only comment on acquiring the line was that
> "there isn't a curve to be seen"...and soon NS
> started running traffic over the line as a safety
> valve in the years immediately after the merger. I
> saw one through CSX train over the line.
>
> I guess I'm not sure what the big deal is, we are
> simply seeing NS bring a few trains back...the
> good news for communities is that the work is
> rebuilding long forlorned grade crossings that
> swallow cars and some minor economic development
> benefits....
>
> CG Tower

MEKoch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Conrail decision makers were NOT wise people.
> Sorry, our Monday Morning quarterbacking clearly
> shows their poor analysis

So how long does a line need to be neglected for railroads to see a savings before rebuilding? Even if they put back a bunch sidings and CTC on the Pennsy I'd still say the railroads saved money over all.
A good test case would be the B&O across Ohio and Indiana. Single tracked in the 50s and 60s then tracks replaced just before CSX took over Conrail. Was more money saved on maintenance for the tracks removed vs spent to replace?

CSX controls the grain traffic. CSX hands them off to the CFE and they spot and pull them and give them back.


CR4110 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought CSX ran a grain train from Hana, In all
> the way to Crestline?
>
> Posted from Android

howeld Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MEKoch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Conrail decision makers were NOT wise people.
> > Sorry, our Monday Morning quarterbacking
> clearly
> > shows their poor analysis
>
> So how long does a line need to be neglected for
> railroads to see a savings before rebuilding?
> Even if they put back a bunch sidings and CTC on
> the Pennsy I'd still say the railroads saved money
> over all.
> A good test case would be the B&O across Ohio and
> Indiana. Single tracked in the 50s and 60s then
> tracks replaced just before CSX took over Conrail.
> Was more money saved on maintenance for the
> tracks removed vs spent to replace?

This isn't the place for logic or sound business decisions. Let's remember, the railroads only exist to serve this railfan community, not to serve their shareholders.

As long as a railroad wants it to sit in neglect...rebuilding a line is still far cheaper then building new.

Actually, the B&O single tracked from Auburn to Indo in the 1960's....I think Sherwood to Hamler was much later.

Apples and oranges comparison, the redouble tracking and CTC of the B&O was a build to acquire Conrail, not driven by traffic levels at the time. And I'd say given the tonnage at that time prior to Conrail and the recessions of the 1980's, money saved...

CG Tower





howeld Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MEKoch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Conrail decision makers were NOT wise people.
> > Sorry, our Monday Morning quarterbacking
> clearly
> > shows their poor analysis
>
> So how long does a line need to be neglected for
> railroads to see a savings before rebuilding?
> Even if they put back a bunch sidings and CTC on
> the Pennsy I'd still say the railroads saved money
> over all.
> A good test case would be the B&O across Ohio and
> Indiana. Single tracked in the 50s and 60s then
> tracks replaced just before CSX took over Conrail.
> Was more money saved on maintenance for the
> tracks removed vs spent to replace?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/15 18:28 by CGTower.

People in 2008 (investors, oil drillers, railroads, etc) didn't see the frac boom and the tremendous amount of business it would create. Subtract 60-70 oil trains a day from these major rail corridors, and there would be plenty of capacity.

Expecting somebody in 1990 to see the frac boom and the train surge is going out a ways. Even if the cost of paying taxes and maintenance was just a half million a year, the shareholders spent a lot of cash waiting 35 years

I personally am not second-guessing any of the line-rationalization decisions made 30 or 40 years ago. There was a lot of redundancy in the system back then, and a lot of taxes being assessed on under-performing routes. Local governments taxed the railroads like cash cows long after the mooing had stopped.

People who pine for the preservation/restoration of the Pennsy main as a big-time railroad aren't going to be satisfied with a dark, 40-mph, single-track line with minimal sidings, but for NS it may get the job done. It is somewhat amazing that CSX is trying to make do with a single double-track route between Chicago and north-central Ohio that has very little third iron, whereas NS is setting itself up to compete with three lines -- the ex-NYC, ex-NKP, and ex-PRR mains (the latter via trackage rights, of course). There was a lot of posturing during the Conrail split-up that CSX would use the ex-PRR as its safety-valve route if the B&O got congested, but instead it leased the line out to RailAmerica and has had cycles of near-crippling congestion on the B&O ever since.

Even if traffic shrinks again, the PRR could end up being the politically expedient route for NS to run oil since it avoids more major population centers (sorry, Fort Wayne, you get to be on the "safe" route).

Of course, I'm thrilled to see any additional traffic on the old PRR main, even if a limited number. And not to beat what may be this dead horse further, but a couple random questions for folks more in-the-know than I:

Is there any ballpark way to estimate the cost of upgrading a line on a per-mile basis? I've often heard the adage that it costs about $1M/mile to build new, though I've also heard that is now out of date and the cost may be higher. But here, where there is still a graded right-of-way and basic infratructure, what kind of cost might this be? And just for the sake of idealistic dreaming, what if there were an effort to truly make this a functioning line: add CTC (with PTC, as it's eventually going to happen anyway); additional sidings perhaps around Van Wert-NS Tower in Lima, Dola-Dunkirk, Upper Sandusky-Nevada, etc. Would we still be talking close to $1M/mile? (Heck, in my wildest dreams, we would see Amtrak using this at 79mph, then adding transfer tracks either to the T&OC at Dunkirk for Detroit-Toledo-Columbus or the CCC&StL at Crest for Three-C passenger service...)

And on the larger issue/tangent on costs: Can anyone attest to how shareholder-vs-private ownership affects maintenance decisions? I've finally had time to catch up on some past "Trains" magazines of late, and I can't help but see there the same issues I read here: In the pursuit of quarterly profits over long-term (i.e., 20-year-term) stability or innovation, it seems that many things have been lost -- maintenance deferred, signaling innovations put off, crews cut to the bone. In a sense, it seems only slightly better than what I experienced working as a reporter and editor for some publicly-held newspapers, where companies tried to appease antsy shareholders by "eating the feed corn" and gutting all the personnel and resources that could make for long-term strength. To be sure, I'm all for businesses doing whatever they please -- I lean pretty libertarian, so if shareholders want to ruin a company for the sake of a couple years of huge profits, it's their money. But if I somehow won multiple jackpots and so had thew resources, I'd see much more promise in a privately held company with a management culture that looked 15-20 years out, and limited shareholder input to part-employee-ownership and maybe some Class C non-voting stock, than anything that bound me to the whims and fancies of activist investors or get-rich-quick movements...

- Robbie

Who is the Oracle of Coshocton? Isnt he really the Grand Wizzard? That is the true cause of the melt downs on the CFE and the IORY

CSX did run at least one through train from Barr yard in Chicago to points east. Q357 west, Q356 east. We taxied to Crestline from Willard and got on 356 in the PRR yard and took it to Cleveland. Where it went from there I can't recall. Westbound Q357 got off at Middletown rd. just outside Crestline. I believe a Lima crew brought it to and from Crestline. All this was right after split day.