Eastern Railroad Discussion > Tack-Ons to Diesel Loco Orders

This applies to all the US but TO has Eastern & Western so we can talk about Conrail or Penn Central.

It used to be somewhat common for railroads with a large order of engines to have another roads' order tacked on the end. So maybe an order of 100 GP38-2 would have 5 or 10 tacked on the end (with the same specs) for another small road or utility. It saved the smaller road a bit of money. I thought this was the case for the Cleveland Electric GP38-2 built to PC specs. Or the O&W SD40-2 built to L&N specs.

Is this type of thing done anymore or are builders willing to take any order they can get?

Charles

nydepot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This applies to all the US but TO has Eastern &
> Western so we can talk about Conrail or Penn
> Central.
>
> It used to be somewhat common for railroads with a
> large order of engines to have another roads'
> order tacked on the end. So maybe an order of 100
> GP38-2 would have 5 or 10 tacked on the end (with
> the same specs) for another small road or utility.
> It saved the smaller road a bit of money. I
> thought this was the case for the Cleveland
> Electric GP38-2 built to PC specs. Or the O&W
> SD40-2 built to L&N specs.
>
> Is this type of thing done anymore or are builders
> willing to take any order they can get?
>
> Charles

It does happen from time to time.  NS bought (and built) 10 SD70M's to UP specs in 2000 (unit numbers 2581-2590) and then later the UP ended up with SD70M's built to NS specs.  I understand that NS's first AC GE's were an add on to a CSX order.

Other examples (and in these cases they were more like "take overs") were CNW's SD50's which were originally ordered as MP/UP units, the CNW SD60's which were originally ordered as SOO units (and included the SOO stainless steel "kick plates") and the first 21 SOO SD60's a year later which were originally ordered by NS.  NS deferred the order for a year and the units ended up being built as SOO units.

Still, the term "built to XX spec's" is vastly overused.  Many locomotives have a feature from another carrier but the specs still can reflect the ordering customer.  The CNW SD60's very much were built to SOO specs as that order had progresses quite far along.  On the other hand, the first SOO SD60's were really built to a SOO spec as the order had not progressed far before NS elected to delay it for a year.  EMD was able to change the items necessary to conform to SOO requirements.

I thought the Iowa Interstate ES44's were built to CSX specs, if not "tacked on" to a CSX order.

IAIS units were originally built as add ons to the CSX order, but with GE's "Take it or leave it" locomotive building mentality now, everything is the same with the exception of some very minor details.

IIRC one IAIS was actually painted as the CSXT 950 and then when CSX backed out, it was stripped and repainted to IAIS.  CSX later placed another order an a new CSXT 950 was produced.

I was going to cite the IAIS example as well.

I'm pretty sure the three NYSW SD70Ms -- now NS 2797, 2798, 2799 -- were also tack-on orders, although I'm not sure whose order they were added to back in 1995.

For the most part, smaller railroads don't buy new power any more. To them, there's better value to be had on the second-hand market. The regionals that have bought -- well, really, long-term leased, because I don't think anyone actually BUYS new locomotives any more -- have been larger outfits like IAIS and FEC that can afford the payments on something newer while anticipating an offsetting savings in fuel costs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/15 15:41 by toledopatch.

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was going to cite the IAIS example as well.
>
> I'm pretty sure the three NYSW SD70Ms -- now NS
> 2797, 2798, 2799 -- were also tack-on orders,
> although I'm not sure whose order they were added
> to back in 1995.
>
> For the most part, smaller railroads don't buy new
> power any more. To them, there's better value to
> be had on the second-hand market. The regionals
> that have bought -- well, really, long-term
> leased, because I don't think anyone actually BUYS
> new locomotives any more -- have been larger
> outfits like IAIS and FEC that can afford the
> payments on something newer while anticipating an
> offsetting savings in fuel costs.

NYSW tacked on a big order of B40-8 units to its small order of 3 (or 4?) when it was appointed the designated operator of the Delaware & Hudson.  I believe CSX provided the funding for the order and specified the interior finish . When CP was awarded ownership of the railroad, CSX packed up its locomotives and repainted them.

I have pictures of NYSW livery / CSX numbered units in places like Houston, St Louis and other very un-NYSW locations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/15 17:17 by Lackawanna484.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NYSW tacked on a big order of B40-8 units to its
> small order of 3 (or 4?) when it was appointed the
> designated operator of the Delaware & Hudson.  I
> believe CSX provided the funding for the order and
> specified the interior finish . When CP was
> awarded ownership of the railroad, CSX packed up
> its locomotives and repainted them.
>
> I have pictures of NYSW livery / CSX numbered
> units in places like Houston, St Louis and other
> very un-NYSW locations.


The first four NYSW B40-8s were already on the property before the 20 CSX-backed units were ordered. After they were packed off to CSX, I shot a couple at Acca Yard in yellow with CSXT numbers, but except for that, I never saw any on CSX before they were repainted. During those early years, CSX concentrated its high-horsepower GEs on the southeastern portion of the system; they were very rare in Ohio and western Pennsylvania.

I wonder about the two Texas-Mexican GP60s -- maybe add-ons to an SP/SSW order? Maybe not; the order numbers are about 11 apart (90137 for SP and 90148 for TM).

The big orders are part of a complete supply chain with most components (traction motors, inverters, etc.) being specific to the order.  For example, BNSF and UP locomotives may be being built at the exact same time, but will each take from their respective stock of parts.  A tack-on order would simply be a small order that would then use the same parts sourcing.

The Rio Grande's SD50s (#5501-17) were tacked onto a Seaboard System order.

Thanks for the all the examples!

Charles

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was going to cite the IAIS example as well.
>
> I'm pretty sure the three NYSW SD70Ms -- now NS
> 2797, 2798, 2799 -- were also tack-on orders,
> although I'm not sure whose order they were added
> to back in 1995.
>
> For the most part, smaller railroads don't buy new
> power any more. To them, there's better value to
> be had on the second-hand market. The regionals
> that have bought -- well, really, long-term
> leased, because I don't think anyone actually BUYS
> new locomotives any more -- have been larger
> outfits like IAIS and FEC that can afford the
> payments on something newer while anticipating an
> offsetting savings in fuel costs.

Patch,

The NYSW SD70's were diverted from an order of SD70M's that EMD was building for their lease fleet.  The plan was for 25 units and EMD diverted the last three of the order and used the three demonstrator's to reach the 25 unit total.  These leasers went to the SP (later the UP) when new and then ended up on CSX.  If you notice, the tree NYS&W units carry the same order number as the 22 "new" units in this fleet with the last two numbers being 23, 24, and 25 signifying that they were the last three of the order.

CPR_4000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder about the two Texas-Mexican GP60s --
> maybe add-ons to an SP/SSW order? Maybe not; the
> order numbers are about 11 apart (90137 for SP and
> 90148 for TM).

One was an add on to an SP/SSW order and the other was added to NS's GP60 order.

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > NYSW tacked on a big order of B40-8 units to
> its
> > small order of 3 (or 4?) when it was appointed
> the
> > designated operator of the Delaware & Hudson. 
> I
> > believe CSX provided the funding for the order
> and
> > specified the interior finish . When CP was
> > awarded ownership of the railroad, CSX packed
> up
> > its locomotives and repainted them.
> >
> > I have pictures of NYSW livery / CSX numbered
> > units in places like Houston, St Louis and
> other
> > very un-NYSW locations.
>
>
> The first four NYSW B40-8s were already on the
> property before the 20 CSX-backed units were
> ordered. After they were packed off to CSX, I shot
> a couple at Acca Yard in yellow with CSXT numbers,
> but except for that, I never saw any on CSX before
> they were repainted. During those early years, CSX
> concentrated its high-horsepower GEs on the
> southeastern portion of the system; they were very
> rare in Ohio and western Pennsylvania.

The 4 NYS&W units were added to Conrail's order of B40-8's.  They even had Conrail style red classification lights (marker lights actually).  The 20 unit NYSW/CSX order was a stand alone order but was built to the same specification.

Did the sales managers for GE and EMD go out and solicit orders for one or two or three new locomotives from the short lines and regionals with this kind of sales pitch? 

I could see the suppliers telling EMD they  would give a price break on 25, rather than 20, and then the sales guys hustle to find five more orders.  The final price would be lower than the regional could get on its own, and perhaps with better financing terms.

The NS ES44ACs were built to NS specs, if they were tacked on to a CSX order they'd not have the Hi-Ad bogies or headlight mounted above the windshields....only thing similar is the weights (432,000lbs).

MitchGDRMCo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The NS ES44ACs were built to NS specs, if they
> were tacked on to a CSX order they'd not have the
> Hi-Ad bogies or headlight mounted above the
> windshields....only thing similar is the weights
> (432,000lbs).

I have no direct knowledge so I cannot speak with authority.  Still, the trucks are interchangeable (btw radial not hi-ad on CSX unit).  As such, they could have been substituted while in production or even after the fact.  The head light needs to be "cut in" these day anyway.  All NS 8000's (the GE AC's) have the nose light fabrication blanked out.

Again, I could be wrong on this order.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did the sales managers for GE and EMD go out and
> solicit orders for one or two or three new
> locomotives from the short lines and regionals
> with this kind of sales pitch? 
>
> I could see the suppliers telling EMD they  would
> give a price break on 25, rather than 20, and then
> the sales guys hustle to find five more orders. 
> The final price would be lower than the regional
> could get on its own, and perhaps with better
> financing terms.

Regardless of who approached who, this is more or less mandatory anymore.  As discussed earlier/elsewhere, when the Texas Mexican wanted 4 axle locomotives, they basically needed to wait until someone else ordered them to place an "add on" to the order.  The days of the TM ordering 1 GP38-2 or the FEC ordering 2 GP40-2's died in the late 1980's.

Both of Savanna Rivers units (the GP60 and the B40-8) were also "add on's" even with huge government budgets to pay for them.

MitchGDRMCo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The NS ES44ACs were built to NS specs, if they
> were tacked on to a CSX order they'd not have the
> Hi-Ad bogies or headlight mounted above the
> windshields....only thing similar is the weights
> (432,000lbs).

And the cab layout, the control stand and the CSX style seats they original had, the lack of a rear anti-climber and no rear ditch lights on delivery.