Eastern Railroad Discussion > Concrete tie removal on Sand Patch

In the picture below, a westbound manifest passes a growing pile of tie plates at Mance, PA on the east slope of CSX's Sand Patch grade.  The pile of tie plates marks the preparation for the removal of the aging concrete ties that stretch for about two miles on track two from near the tunnel mouth downgrade.  A local work gang will first replace every 5th tie with a wooden one.  All will be subsequently replaced by a track gang later this spring or early summer.

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All the concrete ties will be replaced with wood? So much for concrete's 30-50-year life span, eh?

CPR_4000 Wrote:
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> All the concrete ties will be replaced with wood?
> So much for concrete's 30-50-year life span, eh?

Concrete roads and driveways only last a few years, how do they expect it to last with thousands of tons of freight passing over it?  Lol

msullivan1993 Wrote:
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> CPR_4000 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > All the concrete ties will be replaced with
> wood?
> > So much for concrete's 30-50-year life span,
> eh?
>
> Concrete roads and driveways only last a few
> years, how do they expect it to last with
> thousands of tons of freight passing over it? 
> Lol

Amtrak's concrete ties on the NEC lasted just a few years before they had to be replaced.  I believe the conclusion was poor manufacturing process leading to premature deterioration.

>
> Amtrak's concrete ties on the NEC lasted just a
> few years before they had to be replaced.  I
> believe the conclusion was poor manufacturing
> process leading to premature deterioration.

Amtrak's NECIP ties are still going strong after 30 years.  Perhaps they didn't go with a concrete manufacturer from the New York area, if you know what I mean.

 

msullivan1993 Wrote:
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> CPR_4000 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > All the concrete ties will be replaced with
> wood?
> > So much for concrete's 30-50-year life span,
> eh?
>
> Concrete roads and driveways only last a few
> years, how do they expect it to last with
> thousands of tons of freight passing over it? 
> Lol

concrete tie deterioration haa less to do with tonnage and loading and more to do with proper drainage and track surface ...

on track with proper drainage and surface concrete ties will last close to their projected lifespan and on curves the rail will wear twice as fast as the concrete ties ...

concrete tie installation on freight railroads was usually for curve patch ... concrete ties again with proper drainage and surface will hold gage almost 3 times longer than wood even with some minor deteriorated conditions

Posted from Android

Totally agree with OOS, having worked heavy and highway for 40 years I've seen cases where positive drainage does far more good than about anything
short of diverting a river bend or dewatering an area and I have done both of the latter.
Alan




Out_Of_Service Wrote:
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> msullivan1993 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > CPR_4000 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > All the concrete ties will be replaced with
> > wood?
> > > So much for concrete's 30-50-year life span,
> > eh?
> >
> > Concrete roads and driveways only last a few
> > years, how do they expect it to last with
> > thousands of tons of freight passing over it? 
> > Lol
>
> concrete tie deterioration haa less to do with
> tonnage and loading and more to do with proper
> drainage and track surface ...
>
> on track with proper drainage and surface concrete
> ties will last close to their projected lifespan
> and on curves the rail will wear twice as fast as
> the concrete ties ...
>
> concrete tie installation on freight railroads was
> usually for curve patch ... concrete ties again
> with proper drainage and surface will hold gage
> almost 3 times longer than wood even with some
> minor deteriorated conditions
>
> Posted from Android

Those concrete ties have been in place on Sand Patch at lot longer than many folks might suspect.  If I recall correctly they were installed there in the mid-1970s, and Sand Patch was among a few locations where they were installed as a test.  In addition, I am sure that a lot has been learned since they were initially manufactured and installed.  This photo was taken on Aug. 15, 1982 and they were in place then.  Even at that time, they were far from new.  I have been going to Sand Patch for almost 40 years and concrete ties is all that I ever remember being there, as a matter of fact, it was the first place I ever saw one. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/15 09:58 by Ex127So.

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Hmm. It seems like only yesterday! ;-)

msullivan1993 Wrote
> Concrete roads and driveways only last a few
> years, how do they expect it to last with
> thousands of tons of freight passing over it? 
> Lol

Concrete driveways geneally fail because people are too cheap, too lazy, or too ignorant to do them properly.  Proper soil preperation, proper thickness (4 inches is for sidewalks, not driveways) proper reinforcing material and sufficient saw cutting will make it last a LONG time.  I put down about 300 feet of concrete driveway between 1993 and 2001, and there isn't a crack in it.

mbrotzman Wrote:
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> >
> > Amtrak's concrete ties on the NEC lasted just a
> > few years before they had to be replaced.  I
> > believe the conclusion was poor manufacturing
> > process leading to premature deterioration.
>
> Amtrak's NECIP ties are still going strong after
> 30 years.  Perhaps they didn't go with a concrete
> manufacturer from the New York area, if you know
> what I mean.
>
>  


not true ... the original concrete tie manufacturer / supplier Rocla was sued by Amtrak and went bankrupt for delivering an inferior concrete product ...

those ties wound up being defective and were responsible for MULTIPLE speed restrictions and have been for the past 8 years, in the process of being replaced ...

Posted from Android

junctiontower Wrote:
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> msullivan1993 Wrote
> > Concrete roads and driveways only last a few
> > years, how do they expect it to last with
> > thousands of tons of freight passing over it? 
> > Lol
>
> Concrete driveways geneally fail because people
> are too cheap, too lazy, or too ignorant to do
> them properly.  Proper soil preperation, proper
> thickness (4 inches is for sidewalks, not
> driveways) proper reinforcing material and
> sufficient saw cutting will make it last a LONG
> time.  I put down about 300 feet of concrete
> driveway between 1993 and 2001, and there isn't a
> crack in it.

msullivan1993 correct, you articulated many basics we were taught at the 51G school at Ft. Belvoir many moons ago. And others mentioned drainage. If you ain't got drainage, you ain't got it right.

I think they went in in 1979

twl

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mbrotzman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > > Amtrak's concrete ties on the NEC lasted just
> a
> > > few years before they had to be replaced.  I
> > > believe the conclusion was poor manufacturing
> > > process leading to premature deterioration.
> >
> > Amtrak's NECIP ties are still going strong
> after
> > 30 years.  Perhaps they didn't go with a
> concrete
> > manufacturer from the New York area, if you
> know
> > what I mean.
> >
> >  
>
>
> not true ... the original concrete tie
> manufacturer / supplier Rocla was sued by Amtrak
> and went bankrupt for delivering an inferior
> concrete product ...
>
> those ties wound up being defective and were
> responsible for MULTIPLE speed restrictions and
> have been for the past 8 years, in the process of
> being replaced ...
>
> Posted from Android

That's consistent with my understanding, as well.

I know there was a multiple year project pulling out concrete ties on the NY Divison. Like 3-4 years to remove and replace them.  The dispatchers must have aged 20 years with all the slow orders, cross overs, protections over out of service tracks, etc

The Ties from the Amtrak NECIP project of the late 1970's through early 80's are still going strong.  The ties that Amtrak purchased in the 1990's are the ties that failed.

There were also some mid-80's ties that failed, basically for the same reason as the 90's ties, poor fabrication.  But, yes, there are thousands of the original NEC concrete ties that, having been properly fabricated and then installed in locations with good drainage, are still providing reliable service.

cinder Wrote:
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> In the picture below, a westbound manifest passes
> a growing pile of tie plates at Mance, PA on the
> east slope of CSX's Sand Patch grade.  (snip)

Do they have enough power on that train?

That's one heck of a consist, must have made an impressive sound in the hills