Eastern Railroad Discussion > New Rules for Oil Tankers out.

New safety rules have been released for Crude oil cars.
www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2015/05/01/us-canada-unveil-rules-to-boost-oil-train-safety

Its dispicable.  One thing that this failed to mention is the requirement of trains to be reduced to 30 mph if they are not equiped with ECP and hauling this substance.  Each and every year these unelected government boards impose trillions of dollars worth of damaging, many times neglegable safety regulation on American business.  The railroad has improved its safety 100 fold in every aspect of its operation and these blood thirsty vanpires just will not use common sense.  Honestly, the railroad has clout.  They have power to crash this entire economy.  Maybe I'm a radical, but if the Federal government wants to push forward demanding such a large investment for unproven, worthless technology such as ECP, maybe the railroads will need so start flexing their muscle.  Stop hauling cruded altoghether and see what it does for the "president's" already manipulated and exagerated unemployent and economic figures.  We dont live in a dictatorship, sorry.

there's couple threads posted a few weeks ago on this

Posted from Android

Why get upset?  The RRs don't own the cars anyway.  It's members of the petroleum institute and freight car leasing companys who will pay for ECB, it's their cars.

Regardless, anything that unreasonably increases the cost of business in America is bad for you and I as the consumer.  Businesses, DO NOT pay the cost of regulation, never will.  You and I pay them by higher prices for their goods or services.  Basic economics.  ECP brakes are expensive, unreliable, and of negligable benefit to train operations.  Yet the cost of implementation is massive.  This does effect the railroads because trains not equiped with ECP that haul these commodities will now be limited to 30 mph, effecting train operations and reducing operational capacity.  Slower service and increased rail shipping cost will make trucks more of an appealing option vs rail. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/15 12:15 by HogheadMike.

HogheadMike Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ECP brakes are
> expensive, unreliable, and of negligable benefit
> to train operations.  Yet the cost of
> implementation is massive.  

The wisdom of installing ECP brakes on hazmat trains aside, have you ever actually operated an ECP train?

Even the crustiest, nastiest, corpulent engineers tend to love ECP after just one trip with it.    BSB
 

BigSkyBlue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HogheadMike Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ECP brakes are
> > expensive, unreliable, and of negligable
> benefit
> > to train operations.  Yet the cost of
> > implementation is massive.  
>
> The wisdom of installing ECP brakes on hazmat
> trains aside, have you ever actually operated an
> ECP train?
>
> Even the crustiest, nastiest, corpulent engineers
> tend to love ECP after just one trip with it.  
>  BSB
>  

Seriously, ECP brake implementation across the board for all of North American freight operations would unleash pandoras box for the next big leap in freight rail capability. I know this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and I largely agreed with what HogheadMike had to say right up to the point where he derailed his train of thought by completely spouting nonsense about ECP. Its clear he has never taken the time to learn about the technology or understand its benefits and what can be accomplished by rail equipment equipped with it. No personal attacks meant, but I hate when people spout off completely false gibberish about any number of a variety of topics frequently discussed here on TO.  

BigSkyBlue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>(snip)
>
> Even the crustiest, nastiest, corpulent engineers
> tend to love ECP after just one trip with it.  
>  BSB
>  

I've never heard an engineer complain about electronic braking systems. Not one, Ever.  That has to be a record of some kind.

ECP would have ---prevented--- the Lac Megantic runaway. If Mr Harding followed the rules set down by the company, that would have prevented the derailment, too.  Other than that, I don't think any of the other fires were the result of poor braking practices. Bad track, shifted oncoming load, lots of causes.

From a Carman's standpoint, current ECP has it's own drama at times. If the system detects the slightest continuity problem, the system goes into fault mode. Then it's time to go car to car and wire brush every connection til you have continuity. Sometimes we've brushed whole trains, and never got the fault to go away. 

Next we would walk the EOT down the train, starting from the head car, and do a continuity check at every joint til we found the car that had issues. If subsequent inspection did not turn up a bad plug or wire, the car will be set out and the train retested. All this takes hours. We've had more then one car fail the continuity electrical test on a single train, and had to set out cars one at a time. I've spent full 12 hour shifts trying to get an electrical fault to clear up, all the while it was pouring on us! 

When ECP works, it's a dandy to run. When there's a short, be prepared for a long night

HogheadMike Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Regardless, anything that unreasonably increases
> the cost of business in America is bad for you and
> I as the consumer.  Businesses, DO NOT pay the
> cost of regulation, never will.  You and I pay
> them by higher prices for their goods or
> services.  Basic economics.  ECP brakes are
> expensive, unreliable, and of negligable benefit
> to train operations.  Yet the cost of
> implementation is massive.  This does effect the
> railroads because trains not equiped with ECP that
> haul these commodities will now be limited to 30
> mph, effecting train operations and reducing
> operational capacity.  Slower service and
> increased rail shipping cost will make trucks more
> of an appealing option vs rail. 

I wonder if you would feel the same way if it was your family involved in some of the accidents that have happened so far from the massive increase in crude by railcar.

In general I agree with most of the post below, except for the part I highlighted in bold.  When the cars are detached from the electric power supply, they rely on batteries to operate the electronic brakes.  When the cars eventually go to sleep after being off air & electric power for 2 hours or longer, they default to releasing the air brakes on the cars.  So, if the cars sit unattended for a period, all brakes except the hand brakes applied are released on the cars.  They better be well secured & tested.


Quote:     ECP would have ---prevented--- the Lac Megantic runaway. If Mr Harding followed the rules set down by the company, that would have prevented the derailment, too.  Other than that, I don't think any of the other fires were the result of poor braking practices. Bad track, shifted oncoming load, lots of causes.

nsrlink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In general I agree with most of the post below,
> except for the part I highlighted in bold.  When
> the cars are detached from the electric power
> supply, they rely on batteries to operate the
> electronic brakes.  When the cars eventually go
> to sleep after being off air & electric power for
> 2 hours or longer, they default to releasing the
> air brakes on the cars.  So, if the cars sit
> unattended for a period, all brakes except the
> hand brakes applied are released on the cars.
>  They better be well secured & tested.
>
>
> Quote:     ECP would have ---prevented--- the
> Lac Megantic runaway. If Mr Harding followed the
> rules set down by the company, that would have
> prevented the derailment, too.  Other than that,
> I don't think any of the other fires were the
> result of poor braking practices. Bad track,
> shifted oncoming load, lots of causes.

===================

That's really interesting, thanks for sharing it.

My understanding was the opposite, that the brakes required electric power to release.  Thanks for that important contribution.  I'll have to look into that

 

Yeah, um, FWIW, "we" found that out the hard way when an ECP coal train smashed through the gate at a coal fired generating plant when the batteries gave out & the brakes released on the whole train. Oops!

> Lackawanna484 Wrote
> ===================
>
> That's really interesting, thanks for sharing it.
>
> My understanding was the opposite, that the brakes
> required electric power to release.  Thanks for
> that important contribution.  I'll have to look
> into that
 

NWRailfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BigSkyBlue Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > HogheadMike Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > ECP brakes are
> > > expensive, unreliable, and of negligable
> > benefit
> > > to train operations.  Yet the cost of
> > > implementation is massive.  
> >
> > The wisdom of installing ECP brakes on hazmat
> > trains aside, have you ever actually operated
> an
> > ECP train?
> >
> > Even the crustiest, nastiest, corpulent
> engineers
> > tend to love ECP after just one trip with it.
>  
> >  BSB
> >  
>
> Seriously, ECP brake implementation across the
> board for all of North American freight operations
> would unleash pandoras box for the next big leap
> in freight rail capability. I know this is a
> public forum and everyone is entitled to his/her
> opinion and I largely agreed with what HogheadMike
> had to say right up to the point where he derailed
> his train of thought by completely spouting
> nonsense about ECP. Its clear he has never taken
> the time to learn about the technology or
> understand its benefits and what can be
> accomplished by rail equipment equipped with it.
> No personal attacks meant, but I hate when people
> spout off completely false gibberish about any
> number of a variety of topics frequently discussed
> here on TO.  

How will ECP braking increase freight rail capability? Yes I will agree it is a great idea and if working properly should prevent an Engineer from pissing away his/her air thereby not having a run away train. ECP is a safety improvement, and for less wear on brake shoes and somewhat improves train handling that is all. Does absolutely nothing for capacity or capability. There are some issues that have to be improved such as the connections between the cars which has already been mentioned in this thread. It is very expensive. And as a Railroad Officer, I can tell you ECP would not have prevented crude oil derailments. 

JOHNY5ALIVE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> How will ECP braking increase freight rail
> capability? Yes I will agree it is a great idea
> and if working properly should prevent an Engineer
> from pissing away his/her air thereby not having a
> run away train. ECP is a safety improvement, and
> for less wear on brake shoes and somewhat improves
> train handling that is all. Does absolutely
> nothing for capacity or capability. There are some
> issues that have to be improved such as the
> connections between the cars which has already
> been mentioned in this thread. It is very
> expensive. And as a Railroad Officer, I can tell
> you ECP would not have prevented crude oil
> derailments. 

But would an incident have been less severe by a instant propagation of the emergency application?

I would imagine that Carl Icahn and Warren Buffet being shareholders
in companies that are building tanks cars are extremely happy right now.

Perhaps caboose and living quarters cars as is done in Australia are on the
horizon with extra crews as well as adding more power pulling greater tonnage.  

 

leonz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would imagine that Carl Icahn and Warren Buffet
> being shareholders
> in companies that are building tanks cars are
> extremely happy right now.
>

As well as many union pension plans, college endowments and millions of ordinary investors.

Although investors in Trinity (TRN) have had their problems over the past year.