Eastern Railroad Discussion > Followup- 765 spinning in Ashtabula

Here is a short portion of the video my son and I posted to YT. Shows the 765 spinning on the W 52nd St crossing. The sights and sounds were incredible. This was the first time my son saw a "real" steam loco and he was enthralled. 

I do NOT claim to be a videographer so excuse the video- I just cut it to size, exported as an MP4 and here it is. I know we both need to work on video editing techniques- I don't like the way the YT vids look and there must be something we are doing improperly.Some vids look fantastic on YT and ours look much better before uploaded.

Cheers,

Rob Bennett
Fairview, PA

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ANDDDDD?

Back in the day a real engineer would be shot caught operating an engine like that. Did these guys ever hear the word sand and how it works when applied to the wheels of a locomotive?
 

bayview_boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back in the day a real engineer would be shot
> caught operating an engine like that. Did these
> guys ever hear the word sand and how it works when
> applied to the wheels of a locomotive?

Back in the day most engineers didn't encounter rails that had been covered in grease, either. As I mentioned in another thread yesterday, someone from NS thought it would be a good idea to grease the insides of the rails on this curve, but they ended up covering the tops of the rails with grease too, and once the locomotive's wheels got into it they couldn't get any traction. The 765 crew had to back up the train and get buckets of sand from their tool car and apply the sand to the greased rail using cups. Once they finished covering all of the greased rail with a thick layer of sand, they gave it another try and the 765 got around the curve with no problem.

So don't be so quick to blame the engineer in this instance without knowing the whole story.

Your right l should not have blamed the engineer , i should have blamed the idiots who greased the rails.

FL9 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bayview_boy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Back in the day a real engineer would be shot
> > caught operating an engine like that. Did these
> > guys ever hear the word sand and how it works
> when
> > applied to the wheels of a locomotive?
>
> Back in the day most engineers didn't encounter
> rails that had been covered in grease, either. As
> I mentioned in another thread yesterday, someone
> from NS thought it would be a good idea to grease
> the insides of the rails on this curve, but they
> ended up covering the tops of the rails with
> grease too, and once the locomotive's wheels got
> into it they couldn't get any traction. The 765
> crew had to back up the train and get buckets of
> sand from their tool car and apply the sand to the
> greased rail using cups. Once they finished
> covering all of the greased rail with a thick
> layer of sand, they gave it another try and the
> 765 got around the curve with no problem.
>
> So don't be so quick to blame the engineer in this
> instance without knowing the whole story.

If it was the local Track Foreman or his boss, they deserve every wheel burn.

Yes, the grease will really do that. I have a true story in my Wabash book in which some mischevious boys greased the rails with left over lard from the farm. Not only could the engineer not stop his train where he wanted to (at Benton, Indiana) but he had to back up several times until he could finally stop where he could take on coal and water. (And in backing up, the drivers spun.) This was during WWII and while the kids were hiding in the weeds laughing their sides off, the railroaders knew something was up as the kids could hear the railroaders cussing and swearing. The boys never told anyone until years later, as they were sure the FBI would find them!

Think about the weight pressing the grease down on the rail--very slippery.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/15 17:18 by wabash2800.

Congratulations to the fireman...

In difficult traction situations  like this, or wheels on the ground, it's up to the fireman to keep the fire hot, FULL boiler pressure, adequate water level ( not too high) and a calm confident attitude in the cab...
That plume of steam in the air is from the lowest-set safety valve, presumably within + or- 5% of 245PSI, the max.
allowable working pressure...

In this situation the professional makes sure his engineer has ample pressure, water and an alert partner ---- watchful on the goings-on on the left side of the cab, both fore and aft...

At high boiler pressure, everything snaps to life: the air compressors work very snappily --- important with all the air being used by the brakes, the reverse gear, etc,---- the injector throws in a lot more water quickly -- it's important to keep the loud noises suppressed --- so the more quickly "the gun" is shut-off, the quieter its in the cab.  

The engineer is listening intently, trying to communicate with the ground folks....

At times like these, the fire must be bright, thin and responsive , I found that a big heel, well coked, in the back --- to be a real life saver in situations like this.  Makes the fire & temperatures easier to control.

A good fireman keeps the cab floor swept up, and even kicks the visitors and 'crows' out of the cab --- until the difficult situation is passed. 

It is BEST if there's only two people in the cab, at times like these, a fireman that protects his engineer is a vital asset.
The engineer has enough to do,  without having to be the cop in the cab.  Time for good cop/bad cop routine.

 An engineer appreciates a fireman that takes-over things IN the cab, while the engineer concentrates on what's going on OUTSIDE the cab.  It makes the engineer very anxious keeping track of all the bodies running around the engine... It's unnerving and scary for the man at the throttle.

A rock-steady fireman is vital at times like pictured here.
Good job, Fireman..

Wes C.

 

Heres a dumb question . Im no expert and the only experience I have is the classes at the Essex Valley railroad when I drove their #40 but they kept emphasizing you dont want to spin the wheels. Ever so if the rails were contaminated was he using the sanders? I keep trying to see the sand from the dome being used but I cant see it , was he using the sanders or was he not carrying any? I dont imagine he can leave without it can he ? Told you it was a dumb question.

NO SUCH THING AS A "DUMB QUESTION".....
[ Confusion is a wonderful state!  When folks are confused by what's in front of them, and what they have been taught, the explanation that follows clears up the CONFUSION...  From then on, in life, that person will never again be confused by what WAS an apparent conflict of explanations...].  I'm so glad you asked....

I was not there, so below are possibilities and explanations as to the intent of sanders, their use and some background about what possibly was going on....

First, there are spins and there are SPINNNNS!
What I saw in the video was traction at it's very highest....the engineer had the power well in control.
I saw NO wildly out-of-control driver spins....
The wheels never went into an uncontrolled, 300RPM, wild-spinning episode.  
So the control of the steam flow was superb!

Others, above,  have related accounts of the ground forces that determined that the cause of the slipperiness required manual sanding----manually coating the rails with sand.  That might have been done prior to this video segment.
Too much sand is a bad thing, too. Trying to climb the little mounds takes power away from the drawbar.  
So, the engineer might have wanted to avoid adding more sand, thus preserving the MOST power ---- needed for the train.

The right amount of sand is ONLY that needed to increase traction.....a very modest amount.  Berks have ample sanders --- a feed ahead of each drive wheel.  It is important that ALL sanders be functional.  You don't want a single wheel on shiny rail, while the others are on sand.  Also, you don't want one or more wheelsets suffering from inoperative sanders.
The different spinnnnnnning  stresses on the wheels and axles can be monstrous,  and can damage the reciprocating equipment!

HOWEVER!  Most Berks were equipped with a multi-orifice sand control valve at the engineer's controls so that the engineer, once underway, could lay down a small stream of sand for JUST  the front axle/wheelset.  Once underway, the rail becomes coated with crushed sand --- which, then, the trailing drivers receive the benefit.  
Again, TOO MUCH sand is deleterious to dragging the train.

As we were saying, the crushed sand stays on the rail....the added friction of the sand, drags on the wheelsets of the train cars....
thus adding MORE drag to the trailing load, and more work for the loco!

"What?"  You say.... "I thought you needed sand to get traction!"
The solution on steamers is...[DRUM ROLL...] RAIL WASHERS!!

Rail Washers are small pipes mounted & secured behind the last driving axle.. right down at the rail!
The Rail Washers are fed by a small valve in the cab, operated by the engineer at the same time he is applying sand.  
The Rail Washer valve is piped into the boiler, below the waterline, so that vey HOT water is fed to the rails.  
Water at 350 deg F,  flashes into steam when it hits the atmosphere ---- the rails are thus 'steam cleaned' by the rail washer.  
Therefore, the train's wheels are NOT dragged thru  the friction-increasing grit.

For newbies only :
Extra Credit Answer:  Where are rail washers mounted on Locos fitted with stream driven booster engines?

So, I will let those that were at the scene, describe in greater clarity, what is going on during this video segment...

I have rarely seen such masterful control of wheel slip, as that demonstrated in this clip.  
Hats off!!  to the professionalism of the engine crew..

Wes C.



 



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/15 12:22 by wcamp1472.

Another home run from WesC. d

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Congratulations to the fireman...
>
> In difficult traction situations  like this, or
> wheels on the ground, it's up to the fireman to
> keep the fire hot, FULL boiler pressure, adequate
> water level ( not too high) and a calm confident
> attitude in the cab...
> That plume of steam in the air is from the
> lowest-set safety valve, presumably within + or-
> 5% of 245PSI, the max.
> allowable working pressure...
>
> In this situation the professional makes sure his
> engineer has ample pressure, water and an alert
> partner ---- watchful on the goings-on on the left
> side of the cab, both fore and aft...
>
> At high boiler pressure, everything snaps to life:
> the air compressors work very snappily ---
> important with all the air being used by the
> brakes, the reverse gear, etc,---- the injector
> throws in a lot more water quickly -- it's
> important to keep the loud noises suppressed ---
> so the more quickly "the gun" is shut-off, the
> quieter its in the cab.  
>
> The engineer is listening intently, trying to
> communicate with the ground folks....
>
> At times like these, the fire must be bright, thin
> and responsive , I found that a big heel, well
> coked, in the back --- to be a real life saver in
> situations like this.  Makes the fire &
> temperatures easier to control.
>
> A good fireman keeps the cab floor swept up, and
> even kicks the visitors and 'crows' out of the cab
> --- until the difficult situation is passed. 
>
> It is BEST if there's only two people in the cab,
> at times like these, a fireman that protects his
> engineer is a vital asset.
> The engineer has enough to do,  without having to
> be the cop in the cab.  Time for good cop/bad cop
> routine.
>
>  An engineer appreciates a fireman that
> takes-over things IN the cab, while the engineer
> concentrates on what's going on OUTSIDE the cab.
>  It makes the engineer very anxious keeping track
> of all the bodies running around the engine...
> It's unnerving and scary for the man at the
> throttle.
>
> A rock-steady fireman is vital at times like
> pictured here.
> Good job, Fireman..
>
> Wes C.
>
>  

Thank you, Wes! I like the term "snappily", btw.

Jason

Posted from Android

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NO SUCH THING AS A "DUMB QUESTION".....
> [ Confusion is a wonderful state!  When folks are
> confused by what's in front of them, and what they
> have been taught, the explanation that follows
> clears up the CONFUSION...  From then on, in
> life, that person will never again be confused by
> what WAS an apparent conflict of explanations...].
>  I'm so glad you asked....
>
> I was not there, so below are possibilities and
> explanations as to the intent of sanders, their
> use and some background about what possibly was
> going on....
>
> First, there are spins and there are SPINNNNS!
> What I saw in the video was traction at it's very
> highest....the engineer had the power well in
> control.
> I saw NO wildly out-of-control driver spins....
> The wheels never went into an uncontrolled,
> 300RPM, wild-spinning episode.  
> So the control of the steam flow was superb!
>
> Others, above,  have related accounts of the
> ground forces that determined that the cause of
> the slipperiness required manual
> sanding----manually coating the rails with sand.
>  That might have been done prior to this video
> segment.
> Too much sand is a bad thing, too. Trying to climb
> the little mounds takes power away from the
> drawbar.  
> So, the engineer might have wanted to avoid adding
> more sand, thus preserving the MOST power ----
> needed for the train.
>
> The right amount of sand is ONLY that needed to
> increase traction.....a very modest amount.
>  Berks have ample sanders --- a feed ahead of
> each drive wheel.  It is important that ALL
> sanders be functional.  You don't want a single
> wheel on shiny rail, while the others are on sand.
>  Also, you don't want one or more wheelsets
> suffering from inoperative sanders.
> The different spinnnnnnning  stresses on the
> wheels and axles can be monstrous,  and can
> damage the reciprocating equipment!
>
> HOWEVER!  Most Berks were equipped with a
> multi-orifice sand control valve at the engineer's
> controls so that the engineer, once underway,
> could lay down a small stream of sand for JUST
>  the front axle/wheelset.  Once underway, the
> rail becomes coated with crushed sand --- which,
> then, the trailing drivers receive the benefit.
>  
> Again, TOO MUCH sand is deleterious to dragging
> the train.
>
> As we were saying, the crushed sand stays on the
> rail....the added friction of the sand, drags on
> the wheelsets of the train cars....
> thus adding MORE drag to the trailing load, and
> more work for the loco!
>
> "What?"  You say.... "I thought you needed sand
> to get traction!"
> The solution on steamers is... RAIL WASHERS!!
>
> Rail Washers are small pipes mounted & secured
> behind the last driving axle.. right down at the
> rail!
> The Rail Washers are fed by a small valve in the
> cab, operated by the engineer at the same time he
> is applying sand.  
> The Rail Washer valve is piped into the boiler,
> below the waterline, so that vey HOT water is fed
> to the rails.  
> Water at 350 deg F,  flashes into steam when it
> hits the atmosphere ---- the rails are thus 'steam
> cleaned' by the rail washer.  
> Therefore, the train's wheels are NOT dragged thru
>  the friction-increasing grit.
>
> For newbies only :
> Extra Credit Answer:  Where are rail washers
> mounted on Locos fitted with stream driven booster
> engines?
>
> So, I will let those that were at the scene,
> describe in greater clarity, what is going on
> during this video segment...
>
> I have rarely seen such masterful control of wheel
> slip, as that demonstrated in this clip.  
> Hats off!!  to the professionalism of the engine
> crew..
>
> Wes C.
>

You are quite wise ;-) Sanders were on and functioning quite well. However, they were not at all "effective" against the 1/8"-1/4" of grease upon the rails.

You are also correct in your statement about the slipping being controlled at all times. I was incredibly impressed by GPB's train/locomotive handling throughout the occurrence.

Jason

Posted from Android

Its not as simple as we ametuers think is it. Thanks for the information, it was very informative and interesting to know more than meets the eye. Ill have a greater admiration for these steam drivers from now on.

Hey, kingman,

We all start from somewhere ...,, something occurs that arouses our curiosity....
You had brought up a very valid point in your original musings...... Rest assured, there are many folks who see the same things, but never raise the question.  The "how come....?"  questions are the kernel of truth-seeking.   Your question is valid and many are wondering the same things you voiced...

You obviously have a deep interest in these Iron Horses.   To me, they are fascinating, encrypted, mechanical machines that are full of solutions that our forefathers figured out..   Our challenge is to decode the lessons of the past...from the clues and the hints in the progression of the inventions that they left us.  I became fascinated by trying to find the answers to the many 'whys' that crowded my imagination.

If you follow your natural curiosity, you will become more and more attracted to theses machines, you may decide to participate in a restoration and you may embark on a new field of learning.  You may become excited by the subtle voices of the past that are whispering answers to your puzzlements....

Wonderous locos, like the whole class of NKP Berkshires, have thousands of clues and stories that they could tell.  The wise admirers listen with all their senses, and drink it all in..

I applaud your interest, your support and your curiosity.
I further hope that you explore ways to become more deeply involved in the loco preservation efforts.  
I will do all I can to support your efforts.

Wes C.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, kingman,
>
> We all start from somewhere ...,, something occurs
> that arouses our curiosity....
> You had brought up a very valid point in your
> original musings...... Rest assured, there are
> many folks who see the same things, but never
> raise the question.  The "how come....?"
>  questions are the kernel of truth-seeking.  
> Your question is valid and many are wondering the
> same things you voiced...

Thanks for the support. From what Ive read and heard from some old timers these old steam engines are always referred to like they are a living thing. They could tell how she felt , what hse would do today , if she was a little off her fed or just up and raring to go. They all feel that twith the hand on the throttle and steam you can tell if its a good steamer or not so hot, what kind of coal it ws ,hwat the weather was doing to her , if she was a lttle tired , kinda like a a family member. I guess with the diesels you had a little of that to but its mostly amps and whicvh click your in and you get a certain power . The more we progress with technology the more we give up in being part of the engine I guess . Its kinda like flying today. Its all by the numbers. 
>
> You obviously have a deep interest in these Iron
> Horses.   To me, they are fascinating, encrypted,
> mechanical machines that are full of solutions
> that our forefathers figured out..   Our
> challenge is to decode the lessons of the
> past...from the clues and the hints in the
> progression of the inventions that they left us.
>  I became fascinated by trying to find the
> answers to the many 'whys' that crowded my
> imagination.
>
> If you follow your natural curiosity, you will
> become more and more attracted to theses machines,
> you may decide to participate in a restoration and
> you may embark on a new field of learning.  You
> may become excited by the subtle voices of the
> past that are whispering answers to your
> puzzlements....
>
> Wonderous locos, like the whole class of NKP
> Berkshires, have thousands of clues and stories
> that they could tell.  The wise admirers listen
> with all their senses, and drink it all in..
>
> I applaud your interest, your support and your
> curiosity.
> I further hope that you explore ways to become
> more deeply involved in the loco preservation
> efforts.  
> I will do all I can to support your efforts.
>
> Wes C.