Eastern Railroad Discussion > Trip Optimizer & LEADER

Read a report from the BLE&T website of how this is being mandated now.  I have read where it is mandated on NS but so far not the others but I don't know how factual that is.  From what I have read from another forum Trip Optimizer and LEADER is not sitting well with many engineers.  That is expected because just about every engineer I know wants to runs his/her train in the most efficient, safe, and smooth manner as possible.  However, I think the greatest concern, at least to me, is the distraction looking at all the info on one more screen thereby taking your eyes off the rails in front of you.

The railroads are big on "mental focus" or whatever it is called these days and Trip Optimizer and LEADER is just one more distraction.  Unless you have run a train at speed, in multiple track territory, constant radio traffic, defect detectors going off at inopportune moments, and other required duties while running you wouldn't know the cumulative effects on more distraction.  I'm just wondering at what point distraction saturation will begin to outweigh the benefits of some of these new technologies.  While most engineers can handle this there comes a point where it can be distracting and as we all know it only takes a few seconds to get into trouble.  A tired engineer coupled with a new conductor is a recipe for disaster when the engineer is teaching his conductor "the road" while he is running his train.  That is not a slam on new conductors.  It is a fact of life on the railroad.

Railroads and the FRA have banned electronics from the cab (unless they benefit the railroad), and rightly so.  Why are they so insistent on bringing aboard another distraction?  To you engineers who use this new technologies how is it working for you?  Is it something you just get used to and eventually will not be a distraction or do you consider it a problem?  Here is the link I read.  Yes, it is from a union website, but I believe the problem is real.

http://www.ble-t.org/pr/news/newsflash.asp?id=5805

 

RS11 Wrote:
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>Trip Optimizer and LEADER
> is not sitting well with every engineer.

Fixed it. Everyone here hates it. 

Best nickname I've heard for Trip Optimizer on CSX was "Trip Sodomizer" which eloquently captures how some crews feel about it...

Posted from iPhone

The only good thing I can say about LEADER, is that they finally got rid of that annoying "whistle" noise. I always wondered where they found a warehouse full of surplus 1970's-vintage Coleco handheld electronic football games, to pilfer the sound boards from.

Posted from Android

So what is really wrong with Trip Optimzer that so many engineers feel it is doing a poor job?

DC

It won't let you do above 45 in the name of fuel conservation, keeping you in dynamic going upgrade, starting you into dynamic miles before a down grade. We had a train get torn in 3 pieces last year due to LEADER directions being followed 100% (as required).

wabash1189 Wrote:
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> It won't let you do above 45 in the name of fuel
> conservation, keeping you in dynamic going
> upgrade, starting you into dynamic miles before a
> down grade. We had a train get torn in 3 pieces
> last year due to LEADER directions being followed
> 100% (as required).
So do you get in trouble for that for "poor train handling" when it is really the computer's fault - meaning can you show you were letting LEADER call the shots?

The words I've heard we're "If I pull the tapes, and see you followed leader 100%, I'll shake your hand." Personally, I don't believe that one bit, but they claim if we tear things up following leader, they'll turn a blind eye.

Another problem I see are boredom / fatigue incidents.

The system runs the train according to track topography and timetable speeds, but it doesn't control compliance with signals, stop and flag crossing orders, and the like. 

Now picture this scenario: The crew worked 12 hours the prior trip to the hotel, got 8 hours rest (on paper) and now they are running home with a 140 car whopper in the middle of the night. The conductor is passed out in his chair, the engineer has nothing to do, no thinking or problem solving to do in his head......just hit the alerter and blow the horn for crossings. Now it's around 4am, the sidewall heater is on full blast, the steady hum of the engine is soothing....the engineer nods off, misses an approach signal, or a restricting signal....the trip optimizer keeps the train at track speed......WHAM-O.

If the employee is not engaged actively in his work at the throttle, and he is fatigued from working rotating shifts which screws up his circadian rhythms.....he is going to start dozing off from boredom and fatigue. Especially if he runs over the same 100 miles of territory every day for the last 5, 10, or 30 years. 

Some snake oil salesmen told the RRs this crap would save them fuel. But it's at the expense of trains running slower & overall "network velocity" (that's douchebag corporate speak for train speed) being reduced & as a result less capacity / throughput on the same tracks due to slower trains.  Just think about how much fuel a stopped & shut down train saves!!??

The Trip optimizer will be used in conjunction with PTC. The engineer will basically sit and monitor the screen as even the horn blowing can be done by the PTC.
And Yes I hate it too. If the Engineer messes up on the PTC it will be used against them in a discipline manner, (I.E.that train is stopped by PTC and not the locomotive engineer
for a work authority or stop and flag at a road crossing). Being an Engineer for a class one will suck a little more soon. On the flip side there are a few this will help run a train.

If you work on a piece of railroad with few train meets and easy grades, it is not so bad. But that does not exist in very many places outside the Midwest and around the coasts. Trip Optimizer will allow a train to go right up to the speed limit on a downgrade, then toss you the ball by going into manual mode only. That is because it can't set the air (yet).  Fortunately, engineers are allowed to turn it off in such scenarios before that happens.

And as was mentioned, it is like cruise control in your car. It regulates your speed and that's it. You must turn it off in order to slow down or stop if you need to.  The nice thing is it shows a profile of the terrain, the position of your train, maximum speeds, slow orders and mileposts. That's not a bad thing no matter how much experience you have. Students are allowed tolog in and watch the chart, but must run manually.

I think every business in the country, including railroads would make a better investment by using training techniques which are more personal, one on one with the boss, and involving the employees with the larger goals of the firm. All of that requires people skills, however, which are eschewed in favor of metrics and data. Many managers across the entire work force want to get paid enough to buy the McMansion, and have plenty of free time to enjoy it. And their superiors allow it.

At any rate, I would be surprised if it really saved a lot of fuel, and we forget that time is money.

DuneCoon Wrote:
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> So what is really wrong with Trip Optimzer that so
> many engineers feel it is doing a poor job?
>
> DC

Well:

Trip optimizer doesn't care aboutt train handling. It cares about speed and fuel. It makes very poor decisions in regards to train handling. It will throttle off going up hill causing major slack run ins. It will throttle up going down hill after having gathered the slack which causes massive run outs. I've been tossed around the cab. It also will "think" it will hit something at the correct speed and if it begins to go over, will go in to manual mode, effectively blaming ME for it's poor performance. It uses hills to reduce speeds well in advance of where it needs to instead of using the hills for energy to keep moving. An example is that we go from 50mph to 30mph at milepost 118. It started throttling off at 123. For what? So it could not use anything to lose the speed. 

It also IS a major distraction. I've begged my senior road foreman to do a fuel study on how I run locomotives vs T/O. They won't do it. It's a nusance and a safety concern that I implore the FRA to ban the use of. 

-Joe

BLE&T is whistling in the wind if they think they're going to get TO and LEADER rolled back.  The carriers think these bring major fuel savings and are a key component in their PTC strategies.  

They're also all about averages.  Even GE and NYAB will admit their systems aren't as efficient as an experienced grade 'A' engineer.  I'd suspect that category includes pretty much all the engineers who post here, but say it is the top 20%.  So, even if TO and LEADER bring those runners down, but bring up the other 80%, the carriers still comes out ahead on average.  

Plus, they get the added 'bonus' of dumbing down a skilled craft.  It makes hiring ('sourcing' in modern management speak) a lot easier and management a lot easier since they can manage by metric, rather than having to depend on things like judgement and experience.

Just another step toward automated trains. I've been meaning to post some shots of the UP "radio stations" that occur
every couple miles across Nebraska. You can explain about half the antennas present, the rest who knows but sure looks
like plans for the future.

Out

The managers are completely forgetting about the "human element" involved here.  Such slaves to automation...never a good thing.  

They're doing it in my industry, too (trucking) and trying to get robotic trucks on the road for the long-haul, terminal-to-terminal stuff.  Horrible idea.  All the money they're spending on this stuff could go to paying better wages, but no.  They don't have money for better wages.  But somehow, they have money to eliminate human beings from work.

Seems to have similar issues as the auto router or movement planner that the dispatchers have to use. (Heard one dispatcher refer to it as the "movement preventer".)

Posted from Android

It's all revolving money!  Some shareholder for the railroads also, have shares in the company that makes the software for trip sodomizer.  Then they push us to use this shyt to boost stock shares.  Just like the yellow vests.  How did the employees survive before the vests?