Eastern Railroad Discussion > Mergers that never happened...

...but should\'ve.

If these mergers had happened (MP-SOU, NYC-B&O-C&O, PRR-N&W, and SP-SBD), what do you think their names would\'ve been and what paint schemes would they have used?

Let\'s hear the possible names and, for you Paintshop people, let\'s see the possible paint schemes.

I can think of two:
New York, Baltimore & Ohio Central
Southern Seaboard Pacific

The PRR-N&W probably would\'ve kept Tuscan Red and the SP-SBD scheme would basically be the same Family Lines scheme.

How about the C&O and N&W merger that was approved (in 1967 I believe) but didn\'t happen... The resulting name? It would have been C&O (who at that time already had the B&O and WM, and was looking at N&W/VGN/WAB/NKP to counter NYC/PRR).

Anyone care for high-hood Chessie units? Or if the N&W had survived, Chessie units with N&W sublettering? And what would it have been like in 1976 when all the other northeastern railroads went bankrupt?

- BCM

Here is on that almost happened: Chessie was supposed to take over the Reading and EL but actions taken by the unions prevented it. Imagine an EL SD-45-2 in Chessie paint!!

Mine would have been the Milwaukee Road and Chicago Northwestern. Or how about the Milwaukee Road and Grand Trunk Western. I also seem to recal something about the Milwaukee Road and Rock Island.

Wonder if you can tell what road I like?

Names

Chicago Milwaukee & Northwestern not sure if MILW would have let that happen.

Milwaukee Trunk & Western

Milwaukee Island or Milwaukee & Rock Island

Paint

I have no clues how about you?

Although a bit off topic, it would have been interesting if the PRR had opted out of Penn Central and instead consolidated all of the lines it had a controlling interest in, LV, N&W, LIRR (though not at that point) and any others. Also, an off topic lament, but if the PRR/PC/Conrail had kept the NEC, with freight traffic, that would have been a sight. Imagine some new 6 exle electric freight motor lash up pulling a hot COFC onto the Corridor from Elizibeth? Wonder what the transit time difference woudl be for this route to the Trenton Cutoff and Low Grade line Vs NS\'s LV to Allentown/Reading to Harrisburg? And perhaps with the proposed electrification to Conway, also. Fantasies, obviously, but makes for some interesting possabilities. Greg

My favorite what if\'s are the GTW plus MILW (would\'ve made an interesting map; almost did a model railroad based on the premise), the Chessie plus EL (SD45-2\'s in Chessie paint w/ EL reporting marks? Would\'ve worked for me!), and how about Santa Fe plus Conrail? Would\'ve cornered the intermodal market, that\'s for sure!

Dave

What if the N&W would have gotten the Western Maryland instead of Chessie. I could live with primer SD70m\'s across the Salisbury Viaduct.

Aaron

"How about the C&O and N&W merger that was approved (in 1967 I believe) but didn\'t happen... The resulting name? It would have been C&O (who at that time already had the B&O and WM, and was looking at N&W/VGN/WAB/NKP to counter NYC/PRR)."
BCM


"Chessie was supposed to take over the Reading and EL but actions taken by the unions prevented it."
n01jd1

"What if the N&W would have gotten the Western Maryland instead of Chessie."
wmfan3798

This is condensed from the book "The Norfolk & Western: A History" by E. F. Pat Striplin:

" C&O did not have complete control of the WM at the time ( something around %60 ), it was the WM that the N&W wanted for it\'s new system in late 64. Rather than fight it out, C&O-N&W decided to merge. The boards of both roads approved the merger on August 31st, 1965. This proposal called for the creation of the subsidiary, Dereco, to take control of the D&H, EL, B&M, Reading and the CNJ. On Oct 11th, 1965, the N&W-C&O filed an application to merge with the ICC.
On March 20th, 1969, an ICC examiner recommended the merger be approved. Oral arguments were heard on Nov 5-6th, 1969, the only opposition was the State of New York and the PC. The conditions recommended by the preliminary approval in March had included that the Reading and B&M be included under the N&W subsidiary, Dereco. The assets of the CNJ, then bankrupt, were to be acquired on equitable terms. At this time N&W already controlled the D&H and the EL through Dereco.
The WM, the road that sparked the N&W-C&O merger, was required to be merged into the N&W-C&O after the B&O had been consolidated. All that was left was for the ICC to give the final order to merge, which never occured becuase of the bankruptcy of the Penn Central."

Once again, this was condensed from the book "The Norfolk & Western: A History" by E. F. Pat Striplin. This is an excellent book, available from the N&WHS or the Virginia Musuem of Transportation bookstore ( and probably elsewhere )

The one that has intrigued me for a long time is the Southern absorbing the Monon as a way to get to Chicago. The Monon would have lost it\'s identity ecxept for some sublettering, but hi hoods on the street trackage in Bedford (IN) would have been WAY cool.

VunderBob

Back in the late 70s SOUTHERN and ICG ! Scott

n01jd1 wrote:

> Here is on that almost happened: Chessie was supposed to take
> over the Reading and EL but actions taken by the unions
> prevented it. Imagine an EL SD-45-2 in Chessie paint!!


The E-L I didn\'t recall being included, I thought it was always in the N&W mix.

On the other hand, B&O did have an ownership interest in Reading and Jersey Central.
In fact, the CNJ GP-40P\'s were delivered in B&O plain blue with gold stripe, lettered for CNJ, and numbered in the B&O EMD Passenger Geep series.

Later WM units were also numbered in the B&O series.

> The E-L I didn't recall being included, I thought
> it was always in the N&W mix.
>

When drawing the original Conrail system map, USRA begged and pleaded for Chessie to take over the ex-Reading/LV main line from Harrisburg to New Jersey, and the ex-EL main line all the way west through Ohio. Due to the unions, and their 5-man and even 6-man crew rules, labor protection, and the generally dilapidated condition of the property, Chessie wouldn't even take these lines as a gift at the dawn of Conrail. And N&W was happy to walk away from the EL as well.

Another issue in the early 1970s was the eternally money-draining commuter service EL was required to provide. At that point the state of New Jersey had started to provide a few dollars for new engines and some used equipment, but there is no doubt Chessie and N&W saw this commuter service as a vast money pit.

Chris.

And, the merger that did happen, but shouldn't have....

What if the Pennsy balked at including the New Haven in its merger with the New York Central? It resisted, but was ultimately forced to agree to get the PennCentral merger done.

If the NH had stayed out of PC, it probably would have limped along into Conrail, as EL and Jersey Central did, then get abandoned except for the NYC-Boston line kept for government-operated passenger service. That's what happened to EL and CNJ a few years into Conrail: they were largely abandoned, except for the segments kept for commuter service.

Chris.

ctjacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > The E-L I didn't recall being included, I
> thought
> > it was always in the N&W mix.
> >
>
> When drawing the original Conrail system map, USRA
> begged and pleaded for Chessie to take over the
> ex-Reading/LV main line from Harrisburg to New
> Jersey, and the ex-EL main line all the way west
> through Ohio. Due to the unions, and their 5-man
> and even 6-man crew rules, labor protection, and
> the generally dilapidated condition of the
> property, Chessie wouldn't even take these lines
> as a gift at the dawn of Conrail. And N&W was
> happy to walk away from the EL as well.
>
> Another issue in the early 1970s was the eternally
> money-draining commuter service EL was required to
> provide. At that point the state of New Jersey
> had started to provide a few dollars for new
> engines and some used equipment, but there is no
> doubt Chessie and N&W saw this commuter service as
> a vast money pit.
>
> Chris.

The N&W through DERECO managed to keep the EL from going under, until Hurricane Agnes in the 70's. She killed a lot of on the brink northeast lines.

aj

I've had several merger proposals over the years. I have one of the Milwaukee Road and Rock Island merging together in a western Conrail-like railroad. The basic premise of this would be that the RI would turn itself into a bridge road. It would turn over its Denver/Colorado Springs-Omaha/McFarland line to the DRGW, It's Kansas City-St. Louis and Amarillo-Memphis lines to the Santa Fe, and its Herrington-Santa Rosa/Tucumcari line to the SP. Other lines would either be abandoned or sold off. This would make it a North-South railroad from Minneapolis to Galveston that would carry traffic between the various railroads that it sold its other lines to. This would help because A) it would reduce the number of miles of track that it would have to operate and maintain, while still shipping the same amount of traffic, B) Reduce the number of employees and locomotives it would require to operate those lines, and C) Give the railroad a little extra money, first because it would be betting money for selling these lines and second because it would be shipping between railroads on the long haul, which would have been rather profitable. Milwaukee Road would do as it did, turning itself into the Milwaukee II but with the Pacific Extension.

A second proposal I have is if the Nickel Plate had merged with the Lackawanna. This is a rather interesting proposal as it would result in the Erie becoming part of Chessie System, which I think would have been interesting in its own right. The Nickel Plate would have already had control of the Wheeling line, and would take control of the AC&Y and merging it into the Wheeling, and getting joint control over the P&WV with the WM. Eventually, the Nickel Plate would get the WM and fold it into its system. I have also toyed around with the idea of the NKP getting the C&EI, or at least part of it, to give it a Chicago-St. Louis line as the C&EI was the lesser known of the Van Sweringen owned roads.

Now what would this have done for the N&W. Well, I see three ways this could go. First, the N&W and Wabash could still merge, but they would require connecting lines. One way they could do this is if they bought some lines from the Pennsylvania. Considering that they were working on the PC merger at the time, the ICC may view this as a good thing as it would eliminate a few parallel lines in the PC system. The other two Ideas are that they become part of the Southern or Seaboard System.

My third proposal is that the Southern merges the Frisco. I think this would have been a rather interesting idea and would have worked out rather well as it would be an end to end merger. The Southern had lines going to St. Louis, Memphis and New Orleans, which all connected with the Frisco. Now what this would mean for the Southern's High noses is debatable, bit I have a feeling that it would be the beginning of the end for high noses.

And of course, you can't talk about merger proposals unless you talk about the Complete Consolidation Plan of 1929 Which would conglomerate the US railroads into 21 different railroads. Now of course it failled, but it would be ionteresting to see how the US railroads would have faired if it did happen. However, I am working on a concept of rearranging these railroad groups so that they would work out even better. i will probably post it here when it is completed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/16 18:19 by SD80MACfan.

Pennsylvania Railroad  had to sell its dividend receiving ownership in Norfolk & Western as part of the New York Central merger.    Owned, but not operated.

The issue is treated somewhat differently in Wreck of the PennCentral and the Men Who Loved Trains, but the results were the same.

 

CofG could have been acquired by IC (which had a controlling interest in 1909-1942) or SLSF (which tried to in 1956 but was blocked by the ICC). Later acquired by Southern. CofG would have given either IC or SLSF a route to the Atlantic via Birmingham.

Alternative partners in the east for GM&O could have been SAL pre-1967 or Southern, neither of whom had direct entry into Chicago.