Eastern Railroad Discussion > CSX ordered to stop blocking Chicago area crossings

Pertains to ex-GTW trackage CSX acquired about ten years ago.  The CARDINAL and HOOSIER STATE run over a brief segment of this route.
Andy
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/csx_transportation/news/STB-CSX-must-report-blocked-crossings-on-Chicago-rail-line--48638?

Here's a fairly detailed analysis of what led up to this order.   the short answer is it's easier to let an incoming train block a mile of crossings than have a plan to accept and move a train.



Earlier trainorders discussion

rantoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does, and if not why not, doesn't CSX operate the
> leased ex GTW and the owned ex B&OCT as
> directional running territory?

Indeed, both railroads parallel each other from Blue Island northward, but afterwards each line goes in different directions into the city.

rantoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does, and if not why not, doesn't CSX operate the
> leased ex GTW and the owned ex B&OCT as
> directional running territory?

The biggest issue the is that the B&OCT does not have a southwest connection to the BRC Belt Yard.  If they ever do this part of CREATE they will actually put an overpass to seperate the BRC from the B&OCT (which is sorely needed), maybe they will build the southwest connection also.    There is also no southeast connection to allow the GTW to connect to the Forest Hill yard vie the BRC, nor would the BRC want even more traffic on that short stretch of track that is already too congested.

As pointed out in the other discussion earlier this year, the issue isn't really direction running, it is the inability to get the westbound CSX train(s) into the BRC yard or the rare CN trains to Ashland or points North due to congestion on the BRC and on the NS/Metra line just to the south.  Directional running if they built the two needed connections could in theory move the westbound backlog over to the B&OCT, but there is still a traffic jam.  The advantage for auto traffic is the B&OCT has far fewer grade crossings to block.

The ultimate issue is to somehow make sure that CSX and CN trains heading up the GTW are clear all the way to and through Hayward Junction before the leave Blue Island.  Given the relatively small volume of trains (the prior discussion says only 7 per day), this doesn't seem like a hard task but would require the cooperation of three (four if you count Metra) different railroads to make it happen.
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/16 12:58 by kbmiflyer.

This route is "new" to CSX, but is certainly not "new" in general, particularly to BRC.   I'm sure GTW, then CN (for a time, at least), ran far more trains on that stretch than what currently runs, so why are there problems now?   Did BRC have this many problems getting Trunk trains into/through Clearing?

-Tom

zchcsse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This route is "new" to CSX, but is certainly not
> "new" in general, particularly to BRC.   I'm
> sure GTW, then CN (for a time, at least), ran
> far more trains on that stretch than what
> currently runs, so why are there problems now?  
> Did BRC have this many problems getting Trunk
> trains into/through Clearing?
>
> -Tom

In the late '90's the GTW would routinely run three westbounds through Hayford every
3rd trick. I forget the numbers but I think 391 went into the Receiving yard; and 175 and 395
went to BN Cicero.  Empty coal trains to the BN were also thrown into the mix every so often.
The GTW let the westbound trains "dispatch themselves".  The GTW dispatcher would very rarely
get involved except for faxing a mark-up.  The westbounds would call the BRC approaching the last point they
would fit:  5000' or less at 103rd St.; 7000-5000' at Thornton Jct; longer than that Griffith (yes, Griffith, Indiana
as in the next STATE).  Apparently the GTW had learned long in the past the same lesson CSXT is now learning
about crossings.  Don't  close your eyes really tight, wish really hard that it will all turn out OK, and shove trains towards the BRC
when they have nowhere to go.  Who needs institutional knowledge?

Jacksonville meet Rahm Emanual.  Guess who is going to win?

One factor that helped greatly in the late '90's was having a TOWERMAN at 75th St.  There was almost instant
communication to the towerman and you could figure what was going to move and when.  That way you knew that a
southbound out of Clearing would almost certainly get the signal at Forest Hill when ready to depart, thereby clearing up
Hayford.  After 75th St. got remoted to the CSX dispatcher it still worked for a while until they added so much territory to the
RB that he wouldn't answer the phone for 10+ minutes.  Many windows for train movement got shut by the phone not
being answered.  Of course when there was a tower at 75th St. there was a direct, dedicated line.  A phone call to Cal City
just gets stacked behind the DUI cabs looking for crews, cranks reporting gates down on Metra, wrong numbers, etc.

Funny, I came across a post on the Seneca, Illinois police department Facebook page.  People in poor little Seneca, with
two, two lane highway crossings have also had it up to here with CSXT blocking crossings and even worse the "I don't care
attitude" they receive.  The Seneca PD even posted the phone number of the local CSXT manager for irate citizens to call.

Englewood Wrote:

> Funny, I came across a post on the Seneca, Illinois police department Facebook page.  People in poor little Seneca, with two, two lane highway crossings have also had
> it up to here with CSXT blocking crossings and eve worse the "I don't car attitude" they receive. 
> The Seneca PD even posted the phone number of the local CSXT manage for irate citizens to call.

Not to change the subject, but why would CSX be need to be blocking traffic in Seneca?  Not like the line is that busy through there, with only an occasional local and the twice daily IAIS coming through.

Englewood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> One factor that helped greatly in the late '90's
> was having a TOWERMAN at 75th St.  There was
> almost instant
> communication to the towerman and you could figure
> what was going to move and when. 

Another consultant and I both observed that there were certain towers in Chicago that should not be dispatcher controlled. That was a non-starter, the idea being killed before finished saying it.

Back then, I would tell such things to the dogs and cat when I got home. It was more effective because at least they listened to the whole thing and didn't say no...they just couldn't make any of it happen.

TAW

How about getting CSX from blocking the Cardinal from OT operation between IND & CHI.........

MEKoch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How about getting CSX from blocking the Cardinal
> from OT operation between IND & CHI.........

Maybe if Amtrak put it on a CSXT type schedule where it ran every 28 hours...................

rantoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does, and if not why not, doesn't CSX operate the
> leased ex GTW and the owned ex B&OCT as
> directional running territory?

The short answer is that there is no SW connection at Forest Hill, and even if there were, trains would first have to cross the Metra/NS tracks to reach the parallel BRC tracks north of them.
So there would be no feasible way for CSX trains bound for Clearing from Barr to use the Blue Island sub.  So how do they get there?  They get on the IHB/BOCT joint line at Blue Island and head north, eventually entering Clearing from the west.  OR they transfer to the GTW Elsdon sub just north of Blue Island and enter from the east.

CSX trains from the south on the ex-C&EI that are headed to Clearing can now use a new NW connection at Thornton to access GTW Elsdon sub.  Going any other way (via Barr or via UP to 80th St and Belt Jct) is much more time consuming.  That's just one more illustration of why the Elsdon has become so critical for CSX. 
 

A bit of trivia, useless information or institutional knowledge depending on your point of view.......

I don't know what the current signal configuration is on the Elsdon Sub. between Ashburn and Blue
Island.  Those of you who operated over it or railfanned it in the past may have noticed that the block
signals for the EB and WB tracks were located across from one another with a block length of approximately 1.5 miles.
With the exception of a WB signal at 91st St. 

In the good old days of 79 mph passenger and 60 mph freight operation there was a westbound signal at 91st St.
Then came the 1980's era operating mentality. Before the days of 99 channel radios the only indication that a westbound
was not lined up at Ashburn was the approach indication on the signal at 91st St.  Only a couple thousand feet of train will
fit in that area so that could be a big problem for a big train.   The solution?  Let's give some kind of indication at the signal
previous to 91st St. (103rd St) that will indicate if Ashburn is lined up or not.  Those of you that are signal savvy are thinking
of a double yellow or flashing yellow aspect at 103rd St. that would indicate 91st St. is yellow and Ashburn is red.

The 1980's solution?  Remove the signal at 91st St., lengthen the block to 103rd St.  Now if Ashburn is not lined up the train
will get an Approach at 103rd.  The result now that eveybody has 99 channel radios?  A westbound is told to come on down to
Ashburn,  Say a Metra is due to cross Ashburn at 0940.  The westbound goes by the approach at 0935 and must now proceed
prepared to stop at Ashburn.  The Metra clears Ashburn, the westbound is lined up.  The westbound goes by 91st St., where there
is no longer a signal to display green when Ashburn is lined up.  The train creeps around St. Maria's curve prepared to stop
until they reach 87th St. where the signal at Ashburn can now be seen one-half mile away.  Capacity for following trains is
also reduced (but it seems the only time railroads are interested in capacity expansion is when the taxpayer funds it).

Collateral damage to all this is the fact that the majority of people in upper management today were "mentored" by people
who made their name in railroading by pulling stunts like this in the '80's and early 90's.  This is just one example of many on
how the Chicago Terminal has suffered death by a thousand cuts. 

One other bit of trivia, usesless info, etc...................

I don't know how much news about the high rate of shootings in Chicago gets to Jacksonville.
One of the most important "Trauma Centers" for treating those wounded by gunshots, knifinings, etc. on
Chicago's south side is Christ Hospital on 95th St. in Oak Lawn.  The route between Chiraq and Christ Hospital
is severed by both the B&OCT and the Elsdon Sub.  Only a matter of time until there is much publicity about
someone expiring in a paramedic van while blocked by a stopped CSXT train.  You can't buy that kind of publicity!!! 

rantoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does, and if not why not, doesn't CSX operate the
> leased ex GTW and the owned ex B&OCT as
> directional running territory?

In my opinion the only logical directional running on the Elsdon Sub would involve Bedford Park intermodal trains.
Westbound on the IHB, eastbound on the Elsdon Sub.   Eastbounds from Bedford Park to the Elsdon Sub don't get
hung up by all the nonsense on the Clearing yard leads and can pull down to 75th St. and watch the signal at Ashburn
if the NS can't handle them.  No crossing blocked by an eastbound stopped at 75th St.  But what do I know?

The mind boggles.  Blocked crossings must be an integral part of every CSXT operating plan.
And to make it worse the poor motorist can't set his watch by the trains blocking the crossings...........
unless he has a 28 hour clock.  Does a CSXT Standard Clock have 28 hours on it?  If a 28 hour clock is
stopped can it still be right twice a day?   The mind boggles.............

kbmiflyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Englewood Wrote:
>
> > Funny, I came across a post on the Seneca,
> Illinois police department Facebook page.  People
> in poor little Seneca, with two, two lane highway
> crossings have also had
> > it up to here with CSXT blocking crossings and
> eve worse the "I don't car attitude" they
> receive. 
> > The Seneca PD even posted the phone number of
> the local CSXT manage for irate citizens to call.
>
> Not to change the subject, but why would CSX be
> need to be blocking traffic in Seneca?  Not like
> the line is that busy through there, with only an
> occasional local and the twice daily IAIS coming
> through.

rantoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1960s-1970's both the GTW and B&OCT lines were
> thick with trains moving in both directions, and
> the N&W ex Wabash line was still a main route
> in-out of Chicago.  2016, a different railroad's
> world.
>
> Could the STB order the installation of the needed
> connections, wonder why the connections
> installations were not part of CSX 'GTW lease
> plan'?


The STB seemed to take a hands off, let's see what happens approach to many mergers back in those days. Let's not impose onerous conditions if our feet aren't already being roasted golden brown.  No requirement for crossings, no close reading of traffic flows, and few people who understood what this or that operational change really meant.

rantoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> PS Re-read the prior 2016 discussion and realize
> my query is stuck in a playback loop.

Sorry about the playback loop.  The final solution would cost more than CSX would want to spend.
That would be either grade separations on the Elsdon Sub. or a southwest quadrant connection at
Forest Hilll which would have to be elevated over the NS.  Easier to 1. block crossings and pay whatever
fines your lawyers can't get you out of, or 2. wait for the taxpayer to fund it.

The last option shows how silly the CREATE investments were.  They were based on late 90's operating
patterns.   Those operations have been changed by mergers, track swaps and the CN pulling out of CREATE.
Now nothing left for valid projects.

A good example of the silliness was the 71st St. underpass on the IHB.  Since it was in a certain congressman's
district it had priority.  That and the fact that the local "connected" mayor put his taxpayers on the hook for for the adjacent Toyota Park which
was to be a world class stadium.  Anyway 71st St. was closed off for close to 3 years.  In my opinion if a street can
be closed off for 3 years it is not really that important.  And the Toyota Park never became the "world class" park that
the mayor thought it would be.   The money should have been spent on either 63rd or 65th St. going over or under the BRC.