Model Railroading > RPM vs NMRA and why

With the recent thread on the lack luster attendance at the NMRA convention in Cleveland I put forward my opinion that the RPM movement has taken a lot of the wind out of the NMRAs sail. What do you guys think of that opinion? Which sort of event are you more than likely to attend any why? Lets make this interesting, not into a slamming of the NMRA or the RPM movement.

Denis,
The problem is that the NMRA is a "catchall" group covering all
scales as well as different groups of people.
On the other hand RPM is a specific group that covers a specific
prototype/time/place.Therefore it is a big difference.You are
comparing apples with oranges.
RPM more or less started in Milwaukee at the NMRA in 1985.It is
a great group,but far apart from the NMRA.


Uncle Joe,Seffner,Fl.

RPM meets are somewhat local events for many people so large sums of money for traveling, lodging,and etc. are not a major expense. Manufactures set up their displays at the one I usually attend in San Bernadino ,Ca and they have a swap meet. It is a great way to learn how to improve your modeling skills by viewing models in all scales and all time periods. Plus the clinics given are well presented and the manufacture reps are there to answer all your questions. There are also modular club set ups to enjoy. All at an incredible savings compared to attending a convention a great distance away.

I am not sure the discussion is even necessary. Modelers will participate in whichever forum they find most rewarding. Some may participate in both. Free market forces at work.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

I attended NMRA this year for the first time. They did a spectacular.....tremendous job accommodating the attendees. I attend many trade events each year for my work and I will say this is far superior than the bulk of trade and industry shows out there.

I am not familiar with RPM, but will say it's probably not one or the other. Traveling is expensive, especially when compounded by the costs of trains and layout supplies.

The local draw component is always key to any show or event. I think NMRA looks at that and what a particular destination will offer attendees from afar. For me, cleveland was awesome! Touring a steel mill was the highlight and the scenery clinics provided massive tips and knowledge. The show did a fine job of emptying my wallet...Christmas in July!

I hope to get to Portland next year and possibly attend RPM as well.

J

Joel Brazy
Coatesville, PA

SALGUY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With the recent thread on the lack luster
> attendance at the NMRA convention in Cleveland I
> put forward my opinion that the RPM movement has
> taken a lot of the wind out of the NMRAs sail.
> What do you guys think of that opinion? Which
> sort of event are you more than likely to attend
> any why? Lets make this interesting, not into a
> slamming of the NMRA or the RPM movement.


Dennis, sorry, I may be slamming the NMRA but this is my opinion. For me, for the admission fee the RPM meets is by far the best money spent period. The RPM's to me, have 1000% more to offer than the very old and tired NMRA, they are very out of touch with today's model railroading. When I was a member 40 years ago it was OK but not the best next to MR & MRC magazines. I dropped NMRA at least 25 years ago because I got nothing from them. It's "Thumbs down" for me...is "Thumbs" even part of the NMRA's magazine anymore?

How about the format of the Sn3 Symposium or National Narrow Gauge Convention. I have hosted both and believe it is the best format. We get many vendors in both, clinics, model contests, prototype tours, and layout tours. The RPM does not get the vendors that the other groups get. Vendors bring people to the shows.

Jeff Smith
Lakewood, CA
RailMaster Hobbies

I am a part of the volunteer crew that builds the NTS show after the convention, so that colors my world some.

But, I do both and heres why….The NMRA does more with operations than any RPM meet has ever done for me. I don't build static models-they must run in a prototype train on my layout. The clinics on the prototype models I can find both places but get into JMRI or electronics related to signals-not there to the extent I want them. This years NMRA convention had some of the most awesome models on display ever and enough clinics on specific modeling to keep an RPM guy occupied. The NTS after the convention show is such that vendors bring what sells and a lot of that is ready to run and that is what many attendees like. They attend to see stuff that they can't get elsewhere and whats new. I also see the hobby promoted to a broader audience-from Thomas Lego to live steam and virtual modeling. I believe it meets a broader focus that works for me.

As a far as RPM, I model a very specific prototype (an area not just one railroad) so I like the RPM meets near my local area to see some great modeling(The one in the Twin Cities is said to be coming back. Sometimes I go to an RPM event and don't see as much modern stuff as I would like, but I still learn techniques I can use. The specificity and targeting means that the value is there for a short trip. I also attend many ops weekends-again it's not an all or nothing thing-

There are a certain amount of people who are polarized to either side that may discover cool things on the other side of the house.


Dave Burman
modeling the modern Twin Cities
Trempealeau, WI

Denis,

I think a lot has to do with personal interests. RPM meets tend to have clinics that are geared toward the local attendees. For example, you won't see a lot of Boston & Maine presentations at the Savannah show! LOL (Bob is cringing right now).

NMRA deals with a more broader audience. Their National Shows can be a problem expense-wise for many, so in that sense, the RPM meets are more "user friendly" to the local modeler. However, even many local modelers that don't have an interest in detailed modeling may not attend the RPM meets.

This is where the regional shows come in. For example, the annual model railroad show in Savannah attracts a lot more people than the annual RPM because it covers all gauges (including the large Lionel modeling group) and is local. I personally don't attend unless there is a particular item I am looking for that may be there. The RPM meet is definitely geared more towards HO and S scale detailed modelers, although I may not necessarily posses the skills or equipment for that level of modeling, I still find it interesting and will usually attend.

It's this economy we are in that seems to be slipping backwards that is have a very bad effect on all kinds of tourism this year. I've read many stories about dismal attendance at various shows and events, and the movies theaters are having a bad time. The economy seems to be taking a nosedive again.

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

RPM and NMRA are simply different shows, one for model builders one for NMRA meetings and manufacturer presentations to a specific audience.

Yes, RPM could be a specific audience but usually doesn't include the big money wholesalers and Dealers not to mention National Magazine coverage. The big money is looking for one place to go to and then get back to their Businesses.

Yes, RPM often has Manufacturers who want to reach out and touch all 100 or 200 people who attend. NMRA is hoping for larger audiences.

Suspect the number of manufacturers and Dealers is shrinking. The common man part of the hobby, I suspect, is pretty tough to document. Many of them don't spend time on TO, for example.

retcsxcfm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Denis,
> The problem is that the NMRA is a "catchall" group
> covering all
> scales as well as different groups of people.
> On the other hand RPM is a specific group that
> covers a specific
> prototype/time/place.Therefore it is a big
> difference.You are
> comparing apples with oranges.
> RPM more or less started in Milwaukee at the NMRA
> in 1985.It is
> a great group,but far apart from the NMRA.
>
>
> Uncle Joe,Seffner,Fl.


"RPM is a specific group that covers a specific prototype/time/place." What / when / where would that be?

The ONLY thing that makes a modeler a "RPMer" is the desire to model something prototypically. That is, to make models that replicate something that existed as a prototype. It's not "rivet counting" as many people think. If you take a Tyco gondola and do anything to it that makes it more prototypical, that fits within the RPM "world". But a freelanced scratchbuilt gondola, no matter how well constructed, is not what the RPM movement is about.

NMRA meets frequently have model contests, RPM meets have models on display. The RPM movement is without a traditional leadership structure, each meet is independent and serves as a place where prototype modelers can meet, see models, and exchange information. The lack of structure (and employees, facilities, etc.) keeps costs to a minimum.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/14 16:36 by Geodyssey.

SALGUY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With the recent thread on the lack luster
> attendance at the NMRA convention in Cleveland I
> put forward my opinion that the RPM movement has
> taken a lot of the wind out of the NMRAs sail.
> What do you guys think of that opinion? Which
> sort of event are you more than likely to attend
> any why? Lets make this interesting, not into a
> slamming of the NMRA or the RPM movement.

Since I'm one of the founder's of the RPM movement, perhaps I can shed some light on why a group of prototype modellers got together after the 1984 NMRA Kansas City convention and started Modern Prototype Modelers, the forerunner of today's RPM.

So here is the history. If you attended a NMRA convention 25-30 years ago, the model room was dominated by what could be called professional contest modellers with a heavy bias towards narrow gauge and steam. As a result, the model display was pathetic. Imagine going to a national show and seeing very few models. If you were modelling modern and prototype you got no respect. The convention was also dominated by what we called the "caps and badges" boys. The official uniform was an engineer's cap and vest adorned with as many pins, and sewn on railroad crests as could be accommodated. If the local newspapers gave any convention coverage, it was always along the line of "grown men playing with little toy trains".

Through a good connection with the 1985 NMRA Milwaukee Convention chairman we got a room, and started publicity for a "bring your models for display-this is no contest format". We had over a hundred models on display and thoroughly embarrassed the NMRA's contest model room with our quality and number. For the next several years we piggybacked what became the RPM event with the NMRA convention. Perhaps our best showing was at Pittsburgh in 1990, when the NMRA's convention theme was "modelling the prototype". After that convention a high ranking NMRA official commented…."well we'll never be doing that again". That was the attitude prototype modellers had to contend with in those early years.

Since then RPM has grown with many one day regional events and two well known multi-day events. These are the Naperville (now moved across I-88 to Lisle) and Coco Beach. Both are fantastic shows with vendors, photo sellers, and some manufacturers. At last years Lisle event Tangent, Exactrail, Kadee, Funero & Camerlingo and Archer were there along with many other specialty vendors. The focus is always on those who build and operate their models and railroads. I don't need to go to a National convention to rag on Athearn, et-al about what they need to do next. Plus attending the National Train Show does not require NMRA convention attendance. Next time the NTS is close by, I'll go.

The last NMRA Convention I attended was in St. Paul in 1999. They demanded photo ID at the registration desk. Too many rules, too little content. I try to take in Naperville-Lisle about every second year plus our one day Pacific Northwest event. I've attended others if I happened to be in their area on business or vacation. I've never been disappointed in any RPM I've attended, always coming home motivated and enthused with what I've learned and seen. RPM has been very positive for the hobby and on the quality of models our manufacturers now market to us.

In general RPM advances model building while NMRA advances model railroading. I admire the photos I have seen from RPM events and would love to attend some. Time and location are usually against me. As mentioned previously, the NMRA is a "catch all" trying to do something for everyone. NMRA, like all volunteer organizations, can get bogged down in egos and politics. On the other hand, the fact that we can turn a DC throttle to 12-14vDC and have one manufacturers' locomotive move on another's track with mixed brands of cars is a tribute to the NMRA. Look at DCC, without the NMRA we could be in a mish-mash of different systems, each with its unique CVs and control codes. So we do owe NMRA a debt of gratitude for the years of work and standardization and for being a forum for the hobbyist to work with the manufacturers to allow interoperability. BOTH organizations deserve our support - each in its own way is trying to make the hobby a better place.

funnelfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's this economy we are in that seems to be
> slipping backwards that is have a very bad effect
> on all kinds of tourism this year. I've read many
> stories about dismal attendance at various shows
> and events, and the movies theaters are having a
> bad time. The economy seems to be taking a
> nosedive again.

Most signs point to a steadily improving economy--stock market way up, unemployment way down, Fed tapering is quantitative easing, etc.

I think the real problem is the cost of travel. With hotels starting out at $100 a night ( with downtown examples much higher, plus hefty parking and wifi fees, $35 breakfasts, etc.), and gas approaching $40.00 a gallon, I simply cannot afford to spend that kind of money on a hobby related four or five day outing. Even the smaller-scope conventions of specific railroad historical societies to which I belong are pricing themselves out of my market, and I suspect many others. I simply can't afford to drop $1,000 or more for a few days at a hobby gathering. I would far prefer to spend that money on models, books, videos, and other hobby related stuff that has a shelf life years longer than a convention gathering.

Art House
Gettysburg, Pa.

Yes the Economy is improving but I can't afford any of it either.

Seems like there's something wrong with that concept.

In general, throughout all trade events, regardless of the market... Be it model RR, medical, AV, hardware, etc. attendance is down. This is due to slimmer budgets, lower discretionary spending and access to the information on the Internet.

People gather, distribute and consume goods and information in far more ways than they used to. Industries that embrace the change survive, those that do not, get absorbed by others.

At its height in the 90's, trade shows attracted 2-3% of the targeted market. The real beneficiaries of trade shows are the local economies, the trade show companies and the venues....it always has been.

Joel Brazy
Coatesville, PA

aehouse Wrote:
>
> Most signs point to a steadily improving economy--stock market way up, unemployment way down, Fed tapering is quantitative easing, etc...
>
>
> Art House
> Gettysburg, Pa.


LOL. I don't think so.

and gas
> approaching $40.00 a gallon.

Art,
I can't afford that forty dollar a gallon either.LOL.


Uncle Joe.

Joe, the RPM is NOT restricted to any specific scale. At the meet I host, we even have a modeler who bring OUTSTANDING large scale, scratchbuilt stuff. Darn near every year he has a new piece or two. Also, there is no restriction on prototype either. We have models that represent railroads from all over the country. I don't see this as apples and oranges at all.