Model Railroading > "There wasn't much there that I couldn't find online"

This line turned up in one of the Carstens discussions and frequently appears elsewhere. It raises a couple of questions for me. Fyi, I follow the UP as it was in the 1970s.

What exactly are people finding?
Where are they finding it?

There are some great resources for SP and CNW data. Probably for others. But the only postings of significant UP material, for modelers or history buffs, are two guys -- Don Strack and Dick Harley. Despite their efforts, there are some pretty big gaps. Anyone modeling anything before the arrival of digital cameras won't find much on the photo sites. In my own area, I have found some excellent modeling articles but they are spread across several sites and it takes a fair amount of searching and cross-referencing to find them.

Although I have my own collection (yes, I should post some of it) there are few train lists, timetables, equipment registers and other paper items available.

Does anyone have some search suggestions? Some additional sites with good, organized material. My work career involved unearthing information so I'm not a newbie at this. But I'm not finding any more online than ever appeared in the magazines.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/14 10:51 by grahamline.

grahamline Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This line turned up in one of the Carstens
> discussions and frequently appears elsewhere. It
> raises a couple of questions for me. Fyi, I follow
> the UP as it was in the 1970s.
>
> What exactly are people finding?
> Where are they finding it?
>
> There are some great resources for SP and CNW
> data. Probably for others. But the only postings
> of significant UP material, for modelers or
> history buffs, are two guys -- Don Strack and Dick
> Harley. Despite their efforts, there are some
> pretty big gaps. Anyone modeling anything before
> the arrival of digital cameras won't find much on
> the photo sites. In my own area, I have found some
> excellent modeling articles but they are spread
> across several sites and it takes a fair amount of
> searching and cross-referencing to find them.
>
> Although I have my own collection (yes, I should
> post some of it) there are few train lists,
> timetables, equipment registers and other paper
> items available.
>
> Does anyone have some search suggestions? Some
> additional sites with good, organized material. My
> work career involved unearthing information so I'm
> not a newbie at this. But I'm not finding any more
> online than ever appeared in the magazines.

One really needs to take remarks like that in a different context. Whenever I hear someone say "There wasn't much there that I couldn't find online..." I often think they didn't take the comment far enough. It should read, "There wasn't much there that I couldn't have found online faster and in greater quantity."

While the old hard copy magazines are good, the problem is the inherent latency of printed publications. In most cases, you're looking at monthly editions, and even then the information in a magazine if often going to be at least a month old by the time you get it. Magazine articles are also confined by page space and the overall size of the publication.

Looking at online sources, I can generally find information much faster by way of a simple Google Search, and a great deal more of relevant information without also having to look at material that is of no interest to me. Magazines are a potpourri of different interests because they have to be or they'd never sell enough to justify the expense in production.

I cannot answer your specific question since UP is of very little interest to me specifically, as such, I don't spend a great deal of time looking for it. But I know numerous websites that I can search for material related to my particular interest category (present day NS and CSX) that I'd be highly unlikely to find in a hard copy periodical such as R&R or RMC, or even TRAINS.

I think the key is modern. Trying to find good images from as late as mid 1990 s is even a challenge. I've been looking for BN SD60M photos lately. Online, there are lots post 2003 or so and a few from 1990 when they were new. Not much from 1995.

Back in the early Usenet days, when the rec.models.railroad newsgroup was the only game in town, my sig read: "Much of what passes for knowledge is merely a matter of knowing where to find information." Rather than dig everything out on your own, you might consider joining forums where the people who can point you in the right direction hang out.

My favorites are two Yahoo Groups - the Steam Era Freight Car List (STMFC), and the Passenger Car List (PCL). (Disclaimer - I am the founder and owner of the PCL.) Each has around 2000 members. The STMFC List has a cut-off date of 1960, so that's not the place to find info on or ask questions about the UP in the 70's, but I believe there are equivalent groups for later eras. The PCL has no cut-off date. Neither group tolerates "political" discussions, nor posts criticizing individuals (whether members or not) or the business practices of manufacturers or retailers. Questions tend to be received at face value and answered without prejudice - i.e. no one will call you stupid. If your question involves a topic that has been discussed previously you might be referred to the archives - and those archives are extensive. Both groups started as private mailing lists, then transitioned to eGroups, then to Yahoo in late 2000. The STMFC archive holds over 125,000 posts; the PCL over 90,000. That's a huge amount of information, but it's only available to list members.

Tom Madden

But it's free...:)

pullmanboss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's a huge amount
> of information, but it's only available to list
> members.
>
> Tom Madden

Granted, there is a noticeable increase in the amount of images of everything when digital cameras became popular in the early 2000's, but there are still many older images out there as well. You have searchable image data bases here on trainorders.com, railroadpicturesarchives.net, railpictures.net, locophotos.com, railcarphotos.com, rr-fallenflags.org and a whole variety of other websites. Do a search in google images as well.

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

Used to use the tagline, "I don't know this stuff, but I know where to look it up."
Thanks for the responses. Ted is right. There is material out there in surprising places. Being able to search it out, and then find it when it's needed, remains a challenge. I don't suppose anyone has scanned in Railway Age back issues or Carbuilders Cyclopedias for online searching.

I remember remarking that a certain group of photos were pretty rare. "Oh no," I was told. "Old Harry up in Spencer has a besement full of them . . . "



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/14 14:24 by grahamline.

On the contrary, I think the vast majority of old railroad info is not online. It is in books, in piles in people's basements, buried in shoeboxes, etc.

If I was relying on the internet for researching my layout, I would not get very far. Over the years I have found consist and marshalling books from VIA; I've met and spoken with people who worked in Spadina Yard to learn how trains were marshalled; I've been given slides by friends which have vital modelling info; I've collected hundreds of VIA and CN documents which paint a picture of how the railroad operated in 1980.

I'd say over 90% of my research material is not available online in any way, shape or form.

Now if I want to know how to prepare Super Trees for planting on my layout, a quick Google search will yield tonnes of results.

Try to find out how the Turbo was serviced in 1980? Schedules for placing trains at Union Station before departure? Measurements of Brockville Station? Spadina Coaling Tower blueprints? Good luck finding any of that online.

-Jason

I agree Jason. 99% of the material for my book did not come from the internet. It provided leads but there was hardly anything that could be taken as fact. And it was hard to tell where information on the Net came from as most often it was not documented. However, a trend among some institutions is to put documents and old books online for researchers. Now, that's a different animal. In some cases that saved me from driving a thousand miles to reference a document. And no pictures came off the Net though again it did provide some leads. Most of the steam or transition era photographers don't use the Net or social networking. I did, however, purchase some photos and documents off ebay from time to time.

Victor A. Baird
http://erstwhilepublications.com

Always a fascinating discussion. I'm old and a believer in books and photos. Not that I'm adverse to looking for stuff on the web - there is a huge amount of material out there. The earlier poster is right - the internet may have large amounts of info, but it takes time to "drill down" to get something specific. There is also not as much on the web as some people believe. I also model the UP, both circa 1955 and in modern era. The modern stuff has pretty good internet coverage, but the older stuff still requires cracking open a book or obtaining a photo. Unfortunately many of the old steam era photographers are no longer with us. Some made arrangements for their collections to be preserved and made available, but a number of collections fell into the hands of collectors or families and won't see the light of day again - internet or print. So there is a lot of stuff out there that you can't find on the internet, and maybe never will. The unfortunate demise of Carstens' reminds us to support the remaining print publications AND to support your favorite railroad's historical society.

re: the poster above about the various Yahoo Groups. Very true that there are a bunch of nice groups run by great guys. Unfortunately Yahoo software still seems to skip and jump on several services, plus the presence of so many useless ads has put me off. I used to go to Yahoo Groups several times per week, but after recent Yahoo "upgrades" I only go there about every six weeks because I find Yahoo so annoying. I look at the systems that are used in a couple military model sites, or Trainorders and see how it can be done.

Gary Binder

grahamline Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This line turned up in one of the Carstens
> discussions and frequently appears elsewhere. It
> raises a couple of questions for me. Fyi, I follow
> the UP as it was in the 1970s.
>
> What exactly are people finding?
> Where are they finding it?


One of the resources omitted from your list is available on Yahoo Groups - called "Classic UP". It's a bit more difficult to use and tolerate since they've made their changes, but the list is still active, available and contains a huge archive of UP information (photos, data, discussions & links) that you'd certainly find helpful. Here's the link to the home page:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Classic_UP/info


> Although I have my own collection (yes, I should post some of it) there are few train lists, timetables, equipment registers and other paper items available.

If you're talking about "on-line" sources that directly provide information, I suppose you're right, not much is available. But I've been able to locate all of those items in huge quantities through internet sources (contacts with individuals who have them & are willing to share the info). Perhaps you're going about it the wrong way - use the internet to locate sources then pursue the items through other means (direct e-mail, US Mail, phonecalls, etc), rather than limiting yourself only to direct internet sources. The Classic UP group includes dozens of suggestions/leads to pursue in that regard, Don & Dick mention additional sources often as well. That process has worked very well for me.

Send me a private message if you have any trouble accessing Classic UP, or would like to learn about the many other UP sources that are available.


Take care,

Mark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/14 09:07 by mamfahr.

Two things at, um, issue here: things that last and things that don't.

Magazines will have to concentrate on enduring topics and good repros of old photos. News won't be their business. Think back twenty or thirty years, when specialty magazines used to be our only source for information about upcoming events in a hobby. The lead time was long and a lot could change between publishing deadline and arrival at subscribers' homes, but in any specialty, the chances of a newspaper out of the immediate area mentioning, say, a model train convention in another state were very low. People need time to plan for big events, and magazines gave them a decent shot even if a lot of the details changed. That part of publishing is obsolete.

How-to articles fall into a gray area. I have a stack of 1960s craft books here with directions for making useful articles...from stuff that doesn't exist any more. It's frustrating to come across something that looks great, then read about the supplies that are no longer on the market. Sometimes you can get around that, sometimes not. Many old articles solve problems that no longer exist, like change in the way track is made or the availability of ballas of varying gauges rather than the need to find just the right sand or rock to sieve.

The Internet made it possible for us to turn my 1994 book on coal mining into a much more comprehensive work. I had searched all over the area for information on two particular accidents. You'd think there would have been a ton of material, especially since it was only fifty yesrs after the second disaster and all of the men killed were from my immediate area.

The stuff I needed turned up in Texas. Fortunately, the university holding the material made it available online, and because it was Bureau of Mines stuff, not even the photos had repro restrictions. It still irks me that the BOM employees don't get photo credit. There was no way I could have found 99 percent of that 20 years ago. If I knocked on every door in both counties and asked everyone about anyoldmaterials they might have around, I might find a copy of the report, but the internet handed it to me in less than five minutes.

At the same time, I never pass up a chance to look through boxes of old pictures at yard sales. Too often I hear "oh, Dad had some pictures of that, but we threw them out," or "we didn't know why she took a picture of that old boat and nobody wanted it, so it's in the landfill." It meant something, and so,done could identify it if it were widely available. If everyone scanned their grandparents' un identifiable old photos, we'd have a whole lot better handle on history.

--Becky