Model Railroading > Rivarossi U25C with Digitrax DH163, light 'em up

This is a more technical follow up to a straight DCC decoder install with the new unit.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,3558306

Once installed the number board and oscillating functions are lost. Since the decoder has enough functions to cover these I want to start splicing wires to gain full functionality.

To begin with both headlights function properly. All the circuit traces on the factory light board on both sides are fully covered with black paint or epoxy. There is no hope of reading them or connecting to them except at the tab points on the ends.

Let's start at the front end of the light board. There are 6 solder tabs reading +UB (1), HL (1), NL (1), +UB (1), ERERG1LIGHT (1), EMERG2LIGHT (0). The numbers in parentheses are the numbers of wires soldered to the tabs.

My best guess is +UB are the common wires. HL and NL are headlight and number light returns from the diodes. Emerg1light is the return from the single light on an NP locomotive. The UB,HL,NL wired go to points on a diode card identified as T1, T2, T3.

I am hoping someone with experience in the locsound way of doing things might be able to explain what I am looking at beyond the obvious. There are quite a number of surface solder resistors on both sides of the light board but their connections are untraceable. I have not yet tried to meter voltages between the +UB and their corresponding solder tab return wires. At this time only the headlight circuits are powered from the decoder.

Plan A is to use as much factory wiring as possible without adding resistors if I can.

Questions:

Can I leave the +UB wires intact and expect an acceptable LED power supply from these wires?

Which of the T1, T2 or T3 tabs on the led boards is the + common for the feed?

I will likely have some fresher ideas in the morning. It sure seems obvious Rivarossi wants the modeler to purchase a factory sound equipped model to get full lighting functionality.

Plan B would be to remove the factory light board and use a drop in decoder with appropriate resistors for the LED lighting. I think I would use the three mounting posts for the light board to support a flat plastic plate to support the decoder.

I can see advantages with either plan. I am with Plan A in hopes I can avoid adding resistors. Since I have accomplished surface soldering of resistors on NCE DA SR drop in decoders I am not sure I want to avoid Plan B.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

My head didn't even hit the pillow and I have a question.

Is it likely the blue common wire out of the decoder harness feeds all three of the +UB terminals? If I use a multimeter for a continuity test can I expect a low resistance in measuring between all 3 points? If I find 0 resistance between any of the +UB points does that mean there are no dropping resistors in the + side, they are in the return?

OK, I leave it to the night owls.

Thanks.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

I am going to guess on this one but I am pretty sure this will be correct.

The reason the industry is moving to the 21 pin connection is it offers more outputs. Like lighting numberboards, steps etc etc. The 8 pin connection which is the standard today has limitations.

If you were to buy a 21 pin DCC decoder, which are now available, I bet it would light your numberboards and everything else.

Kleins sell 2 right now. One from Loksound and one from TCS.

Bruce

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/ESU-LokPilot-V4-0-DCC-Decoder-with-21-pin-Plug-p/esu-54615.htm
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/TCS-Decoder-p/tcs-1344.htm

Can somebody point me in the right direction to catch up on this 21 pin decoder info, as to ,WHO,WHAT,WHEN,WHERE,TIA, Ed

Ed Stewart
Jacksonville, FL

Bruce,

Now there is a solution which makes sense. Buy a decoder and just drop it in and there is no need to solder anything. I even get to learn yet another set of programming instructions for future use.

I will certainly keep that in mind when it comes time to DCC the C-636 units.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Ed,

Yes, I feel blind sided as well. The first I have seen of this new connector standard was a few days ago with the discussion and photos of the new Atlas GE.

I guess you can start here and download the manual. Retail is $37.40. The European automation features do not interest me.

http://tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Products/Decoders/HO-Scale/EU-Series/EU621/EU621.html

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/14 09:17 by fbe.

fbe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a more technical follow up to a straight
> DCC decoder install with the new unit.
>
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,3
> 558306
>
> Once installed the number board and oscillating
> functions are lost. Since the decoder has enough
> functions to cover these I want to start splicing
> wires to gain full functionality.
>
> To begin with both headlights function properly.
> All the circuit traces on the factory light board
> on both sides are fully covered with black paint
> or epoxy. There is no hope of reading them or
> connecting to them except at the tab points on the
> ends.
>
> Let's start at the front end of the light board.
> There are 6 solder tabs reading +UB (1), HL (1),
> NL (1), +UB (1), ERERG1LIGHT (1), EMERG2LIGHT (0).
> The numbers in parentheses are the numbers of
> wires soldered to the tabs.
>
> My best guess is +UB are the common wires. HL and
> NL are headlight and number light returns from the
> diodes. Emerg1light is the return from the single
> light on an NP locomotive. The UB,HL,NL wired go
> to points on a diode card identified as T1, T2,
> T3.
>
> I am hoping someone with experience in the
> locsound way of doing things might be able to
> explain what I am looking at beyond the obvious.
> There are quite a number of surface solder
> resistors on both sides of the light board but
> their connections are untraceable. I have not yet
> tried to meter voltages between the +UB and their
> corresponding solder tab return wires. At this
> time only the headlight circuits are powered from
> the decoder.
>
> Plan A is to use as much factory wiring as
> possible without adding resistors if I can.
>
> Questions:
>
> Can I leave the +UB wires intact and expect an
> acceptable LED power supply from these wires?
>
> Which of the T1, T2 or T3 tabs on the led boards
> is the + common for the feed?
>
> I will likely have some fresher ideas in the
> morning. It sure seems obvious Rivarossi wants the
> modeler to purchase a factory sound equipped model
> to get full lighting functionality.
>
> Plan B would be to remove the factory light board
> and use a drop in decoder with appropriate
> resistors for the LED lighting. I think I would
> use the three mounting posts for the light board
> to support a flat plastic plate to support the
> decoder.
>
> I can see advantages with either plan. I am with
> Plan A in hopes I can avoid adding resistors.
> Since I have accomplished surface soldering of
> resistors on NCE DA SR drop in decoders I am not
> sure I want to avoid Plan B.
>
> Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

I would buy a DCC/Sound equipped unit before I did
that nightmare!

Uncle Joe,Seffner,Fl.

Joe,

It may be a case of live and learn. I do have some sound locomotives but I am not a big sound guy especially with the diesels. Give me a good bell and whistle and I would be happy.

After 33 years working inside the diesels and more than 4o years trackside with a camera there are still a lot of basic sounds and nuances missing in the decoders.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

When in DCC there is always a +2.87 volt value on all three tabs. Any of the lights can be lit with any of the tabs. Let's just call UB the Universal Bus.

Next step will be to see if the fn connections under the heat shrink of the DH163 will function off these or will need the decoder + at the rear to complete the circuit.

Lunch time, more later.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

> I would buy a DCC/Sound equipped unit before I
> did
> that nightmare!
>
> Uncle Joe,Seffner,Fl.


I am tempted to follow the same route Joe. I do not think sound is my cup of tea and find the noise annoying. Having said that, F8 cures that but I can benefit in the case of the U25C with the lights already set up.

Rick

In an earlier thread about the 21 pin connector connection it was mentioned there is a harness to go from the 9 pin JST plug to the 21 pin NEM pins. The TCS part number for this through Walthers is 745-1352 with a 1" lead.

Looking at photos of this all 9 wires go to the 21 pin plug. This means two additional fn outputs are now output through the 21 pins. What these are connected to on the light board is not defined to the user in any way I can find.

Does the violet wire go to the number lights? Does it go to the oscillating light?

Does anyone have answers from Europe?

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Ed,

This is the best I can find so far. I am still looking for the pin diagram all that comes up are diagrams for trailer connections.

http://www.dccwiki.com/21_Pin_MTC_Connector

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Thanks fbe, Something to watch out for,, Has Athearn, Atlas, Intermountain, Kato and other non EU commented, TIA, Ed

Ed Stewart
Jacksonville, FL

Seemingly the led resistor is not in the +UB side of the circuit. I believe I have smoked the oscillating light LED. before I try to light the number boards from the DH163 fn outputs I will make sure to install appropriate resistors.

Plan B with the complete replacement of the Rivarossi light board with an NCE DA SR decoder might prove the simplest and most direct way to install DCC if the TCS EU621 decoder is not purchased.

Here is the EU621 decoder data/manual. There must be some standard about the connections to be made from the 21 decoder pins.

http://tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Literature/Decoders/HO_Scale/EU-Series/EU621/EU621_Black_And_white.pdf

I guess you might say I am feeling a bit discouraged about all this.


Posted from Windows Phone OS 7



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/14 00:53 by fbe.

Don't worry fbe Thomas Edison didn't get it right the first time either !

Ed Stewart
Jacksonville, FL

Yes, he got rich as well, he was rewarded for his frustrations.

Without trying to go full Luddite here I am seriously considering whether this move to the new connector is adding UNEEDED complexity to models. For my personal use I can find no need for 21 connectors in a model. The literature for this system touts it allows automation of operation. It will be a cold day in Hades when I define the hobby as sitting on a platform watching trains run in circles with slot machine flashing lights and sounds filling the room.

What happened to the KISS principle? What do we gain from the jump from 9 pins to 21 pins?

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Bruce wrote,

"I am going to guess on this one but I am pretty sure this will be correct.

The reason the industry is moving to the 21 pin connection is it offers more outputs. Like lighting numberboards, steps etc etc. The 8 pin connection which is the standard today has limitations.

If you were to buy a 21 pin DCC decoder, which are now available, I bet it would light your numberboards and everything else."

I can hope you are correct, it will only cost me $37.40 to find this out unless someone else steps up first and takes over 21 pin crash test dummy duties.

More added lighting functions are a really mixed blessing. Beyond headlights, number lights, oscillating lights and ditch lights they are just dressing. Layout locomotives need regular lube and adjustment services and more lights means more wires and more difficulty putting it all back together. The more daunting service becomes the less likely maintenance will be performed.

I have been wrestling with what modelers will gain with all this added complexity.

I have worked on both sides of the hobby shop counter and complexity adds to costs and higher prices are a hard sell to much of the hobby base.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

It's newer technology, but certainly not new. In fact, it was being used about 10 years ago by the manufacturers before going into production.
The price point is no different than 8-pin, later 9-pin with both with huge clunky connectors, were the same time frame back.

It will get less expensive and there will be more to gain. Lest you forget, it was the EU that started and ratified the DCC standard in the first place, this is just progression. Bruce is right, plug in and go. No solder, no wiring harnesses or reverse engineering.

Kinda like the way it took 'murica 30 years to get a train that runs like a 30 year old TGV..

For more information:
http://www.dccwiki.com/Locomotive_Interface

and
http://www.nmra.org/node/171/



fbe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bruce wrote,
>
> "I am going to guess on this one but I am pretty
> sure this will be correct.
>
> The reason the industry is moving to the 21 pin
> connection is it offers more outputs. Like
> lighting numberboards, steps etc etc. The 8 pin
> connection which is the standard today has
> limitations.
>
> If you were to buy a 21 pin DCC decoder, which are
> now available, I bet it would light your
> numberboards and everything else."
>
> I can hope you are correct, it will only cost me
> $37.40 to find this out unless someone else steps
> up first and takes over 21 pin crash test dummy
> duties.
>
> More added lighting functions are a really mixed
> blessing. Beyond headlights, number lights,
> oscillating lights and ditch lights they are just
> dressing. Layout locomotives need regular lube and
> adjustment services and more lights means more
> wires and more difficulty putting it all back
> together. The more daunting service becomes the
> less likely maintenance will be performed.
>
> I have been wrestling with what modelers will gain
> with all this added complexity.
>
> I have worked on both sides of the hobby shop
> counter and complexity adds to costs and higher
> prices are a hard sell to much of the hobby base.
>
> Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Not trying to be a Luddite here but I can find at dccwiki there are new standards for Plx 8, 12, 16 and 22 pin connectors superceding the MTC connectors. Great but which pins are for the red and black track wire?

If I picked up a new Rivarossi, Bowser or Atlas locomotive tomorrow to take to an operating session on a DCC layout on Wednesday I seemingly have three choices. A) install a plug in decoder with an 8 pin NMRA harness getting motor control and headlights. B) leave the locomotive home waiting for the TCS EU621 decoder to arrive in the big brown truck C) install a drop in decoder after removing the model electronics and be done with it in one effort.

Perhaps the 9 pin to 21 pin socket harness will solve the issues but no one has reported back on that here and the pair I have ordered may not arrive for weeks or months.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Does this help?

http://www.bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/21pin_plug_wiring_diagram-1.pdf

If not, ESU's documentation on the LokSound 4.0 decoder might (first download):
http://www.esu.eu/en/downloads/instruction-manuals/digital-decoders/

It's the first PDF in the list. They give complete pinouts.

fbe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not trying to be a Luddite here but I can find at
> dccwiki there are new standards for Plx 8, 12, 16
> and 22 pin connectors superceding the MTC
> connectors. Great but which pins are for the red
> and black track wire?
>
> If I picked up a new Rivarossi, Bowser or Atlas
> locomotive tomorrow to take to an operating
> session on a DCC layout on Wednesday I seemingly
> have three choices. A) install a plug in decoder
> with an 8 pin NMRA harness getting motor control
> and headlights. B) leave the locomotive home
> waiting for the TCS EU621 decoder to arrive in the
> big brown truck C) install a drop in decoder after
> removing the model electronics and be done with it
> in one effort.
>
> Perhaps the 9 pin to 21 pin socket harness will
> solve the issues but no one has reported back on
> that here and the pair I have ordered may not
> arrive for weeks or months.
>
> Posted from Windows Phone OS 7



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/14 20:25 by tmurray.