Model Railroading > 21 pin decoders and KISS principles

For those of you wondering about adding non sound DCC to a new Rivarossi U25C, Bowser C-636 or Atlas C-40 locomotive there have been recent threads about the 21 pin connectors in these models. Her are my experiences with the Rivarossi product.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,3558793

For the life of me I cannot understand why any model railroad locomotive NEEDS 21 electrical connections to function. On top of that this new feature is new so modelers have limited options for products to work with. I have yet to find a pin diagram of any industry standards being followed with the pin connections. It is like working with a blindfold for the modeler to install any third party decoder.

I am thinking of drawing a line in the sand, NO MORE 21 PIN CONNECTORS IN MODELS! I will remove any non sound light board with this complex and unnecessary apparatus and replace it with one of the common drop in decoder boards from Digitrax, NCE, TCS or other similar decoders. I can harvest the wires for all the lighting functions built in or added to the model and make solder connections on the decoder board.

MAKE THE MADNESS STOP!

Any thoughts from others?

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/14 08:51 by fbe.

You don't have to tell me twice, If the EU guys want 21 pins let them have at it, I'm sticking wit 8 or 9 pin factory installed, and thanks fbe for sharing your experience with this !, Kudos for the effort !, Ed

Ed Stewart
Jacksonville, FL

Sounds strangely similar to the "DCC is too complicated, I'm sticking to traditional DC" argument we've all heard over the years.

Give it time and see how it all shakes out. In the long run, the connectors may actually make the job of swapping decoders easier.

DCC is a trade off between locomotive complexity and under the layout simplicity. I vote DCC.

Why all the secrecy about the 21 pin connections and industry protocols? If I use the 9 pin to 21 socket harness what will the decoder F1 and F2 wires connect to? If I need to install resistor values for 1.5v or LED lighting do I have to do this inside the harness itself?

If this is going to be some new standard where is the online specs we all can read?

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Manufactures are already adding more lights and other functions to their models. With and 8 pin plug, you can only control 3 functions. 9 pin is only 4 functions. As an example, say you have an NS model with front and rear headlights and front and rear flashing ditch lights. That's 6 functions and if you add separate number boards and you have even more functions. If you only have and 8 pin and you plug in a decoder you are gonna have headlights and one ditch light that you can control. People are gonna complain and say that it's defective. And most people can't be bothered to do anymore work than plug in a decoder, so you can't ask them to solder anything. The 21 pin board can handle all of those functions. Bowser, Atlas, Rapido, Intermountain all have the 21 pin decoder. DCC manufactures will start coming out with 21 pin decoders. They would be dumb not too. The 8 and 9 pins are outdated.

Alec

Posted from iPhone

Alec,

I am not opposed to the connector. Other than the length at 21 pins it is very compact when putting a harness on it.

What do you do if you purchase a 21 pin decoder like the TCS EU621 and you want to add the full blown SP light package or the alternating ditch lights maybe even a simple rotary beacon? How do you connect the light wires to specific pins so they can be programmed to function properly? If there are surface solder points on the top or edge of the decoder that defeats the whole purpose of 21 pins.

Is there a generic electronics board available with 21 pins on top and 21 solder tabs along the sides, ends and surface so the modeler can make wire connections to the pins via circuit traces? I can't find any on the web yet. Each solder point would have to be numbered and the manual would have to be specific to function. For that you might as well stay with drop in decoder boards with more functions.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/14 12:08 by fbe.

Actually, we need to go to the 21 pin decoders to allow for even current advancements like sound and number board lights. The NMRA 8 pin decoder was already outmoded by the 4 function decoder. The future could find many more uses like on board cameras and running lights. Imagine a locomotive that comes with a camera in the engineers seat that will broadcast to your smartphone via bluetooth! We need to evolve to the 21 pin standard to allow for that extra functionality that could be just around the corner.

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

Ted,

On board cameras, cell phone viewer, moving equipment. What could possibly go wrong here? The next thing you know there will be FRA involvement.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Check out the ESU 21MTC adapter board. 21 small solder pads and a plug for a 21 pin decoder.

Andrew C

fbe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Is there a generic electronics board available
> with 21 pins on top and 21 solder tabs along the
> sides, ends and surface so the modeler can make
> wire connections to the pins via circuit traces? I
> can't find any on the web yet. Each solder point
> would have to be numbered and the manual would
> have to be specific to function. For that you
> might as well stay with drop in decoder boards
> with more functions.
>
> Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Andrew,

Thank you for the link. That board certainly allows access to all the pins to hardwire a 21 pin decoder into a heritage locomotive. If even half those pads are used soldering techniques are going to have to be top level and an assembly sequence worked out to avoid melting insulation on wires already installed.

I could not download the manual for the board to my smart phone to see if there are pin functions listed. I will fire up the laptop and try again later.

I can see building an auliliary board off this one for mounting resistors for low voltage lighting and keep alive circuit connectors unless the decoder has a two pin connector built in.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

I was just looking further and it appears TCS also offers an adapter board. It is called the NEM21 and looks to be a 9 pin to 21 pin adapter. Definitely fewer pads to solder and the color coding is shown right on the TCS website.

Andrew C

Andrew,

I don't find that on the tcsdcc website. Please send a link if convenient.

I have two of the 9 pin JST to 21 socket harnesses on order. If these will give me an oscillating light function and at least on number board light I will be happy. If not it will be installation of a drop in decoder board or try the TCS EU621 decoders.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Guys,

Let's remember that Rivarossi is a European company, and, for one reason or another, the European model railroad market (which is, overall, probably significantly larger, and, more important, makes a larger contribution to their bottom line than that of the US) is moving from 8-pin (or whatever) to 21. So, Rivarossi will be putting 21-pin stuff into their models to keep their electronic parts as standard as possible.

I will leave it to others to discuss pros and cons between the two standards.....

This goes way beyond Rivarossi to the Chinese company putting the models together. I suspect any company using the ESU lok-sound decoders is also getting the ESU mother board. This includes US companies such as Intermountain, Bowser and Atlas. So far Athearn, using Tsunami, is exempt.

We are in a transition period full of unknowns. It is customer driven. Lok-sound makes a good product and customers asked manufacturers to provide it. They asked ESU to put together and they said sure but 9 pin connections are dead, we have moved to the new 21 pin standard and THAT is what you will get. So here we are. This is going to be a bumpy ride unless you can accept what the builders offer without change in features and functions.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

I was surprised to find the 21 pin connector in the new Rapido GMD-1 too. Looking into the documentation leads quickly to ESU sound and none sound decoders



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/14 15:10 by faraway.

Let's see if I can post a link here...

https://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Products/Harnesses/European_Harnesses/harnesses.html

It's the last one on the page.

Andrew C



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/14 15:10 by andrewcastle.

Here is my experience with an ESU LokPilot DCC plug in decoder.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,3568064

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7