Model Railroading > The 2016 PC - Redoing the CP221 Diamonds with Walthers

So I completed laying down all 9 diamonds at CP221 and train-length rail either side of the 30 degree Atlas crossings to test how it ran and looked. Lo and behold, when I ran trains over them, they did not move smoothly through as they do on the Peco crossings - they intead had wheels lifting up and bumping over them, often times derailing in the process unless you moved at a very slow speed. This also raised havoc with sound-equipped power, as it was dropping power in and out traversing the diamonds.  Ken suggested I essentially take a hacksaw blade to the space between the guard rails and the travel rail and shave it down, as he solved a similar issue this way successfully. So I did but the problem did not go away. The problem does not occur with all rolling stock but it does with Athearn, ExactRail, ScaleTrains, and other quality models. It is definitely not a flange depth issue.  All locomotives do it regardless of maker. 

So I rigged up a close-up video to look at the problem, and discovered the issue. The guard rail is too close to the travel rail, and wheel flanges hit it as they approach the diamond. (See video below)

So I checked the gauge of the wheels that did and virtually all were spot-on. The ones that were a bit wide got through ok. So then I filed the frog approaches down vertically (narrowing them at the trouble spot - the same on all 9 diamonds, shown in red in the picture below)  ....this only opened the gap too much at the rail intersections and more derailments occured. 

Not wanting to spend days modiying Code 83 diamonds, I am tearing it all up and replacing all with Shinohara 30 degree Code 83 crossings. (Peco does not yet make a 30 degree crossing in Code 83)  They are larger in length and whuile they fit the space involved, they have to be trimmed but that is a lot easier with a moto-tool than what I was facing. The biggest issue now is FINDING Walthers Code 83 d0 degree diamonds...I cleaned out my LHS and got 6 but had to pre-order from Walthers for the other 5 (they exist elsewhere on the layout too but not yet installed) and they are due in in July. The photo shows the beginning of the rework. .I should have it done in a few days :)

Bob

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Bob, you have saved many of us from future aggravation. Thanks!

I'll have to check my layout plans to make sure that I have no 30 degree crossings. You seem to have cornered the market (-:

EO

Bummer.  At least you identified the problem and have a solution.  Shame it's been a waste of time and $$  Good luck going forward.

hogheaded Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bob, you have saved many of us from future
> aggravation. Thanks!
>
> I'll have to check my layout plans to make sure
> that I have no 30 degree crossings. You seem to
> have cornered the market (-:
>
> EO

I feel badly because I like Atlas products in general and have hundreds of their rolling stock items....the problem with these diamonds was never anticipated. If anything I thought their gaps would be greater between the guard rail and the travel rail. For all I know this may be an issue with just this batch of these crossings, or I may have completely misunderstood the issue. I posted it here in the hopes someone else would havre discovered a similar issue and solved it. Ken's idea would be perfect except that I am not bottoming out on the gap between the rails. I do intend to send the video and the crossings to Atlas directly to see if they can figure it out, but have to move ahead with what I am building. 

As for cornering the market - I'd be happiest if Peco  made one....but failing that there is still the mismatch to deal with between Walthers' rail profile/tie thickness (diamonds) and Peco's (track). But that is not daunting.

Bob



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/16 06:03 by navarch2.

boejoe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bummer.  At least you identified the problem and
> have a solution.  Shame it's been a waste of time
> and $$  Good luck going forward.

Honestly, the Atlas diamonds were fairly inexpensive, and the experience of fitting all this has been good for me to learn-from.

Thank you for the good wishes going forward :) 

Bob

It does look like the flanges are riding up on something in the middle but if you shaved them down, then what is causing the wheels to lift up?  The rail seems flat. Wierd.

Inexpensive or not, good quality HO rolling stock should be able to roll through them without derailing.  I expect Atlas will be very willing to investigate and try to fix the issues.  Of course that may take time and you need to move ahead so you've got a workable plan. 



Cheers, Jim Fitch



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/16 07:19 by SPDRGWfan.

In watching the video this appears to me to be a guard rail problem OR the track rails do not align properly letting the wheel hit the point of the insulatiing "v".

Looking straight at your video.The wheels appear to be rising on the
30 degree main rail that is going from left to right.
Place the crossing on a level flat surface and place a straight edge
across and see where the high spots are in each direction.

Uncle Joe,Seffner,Fl.
just a picture taker.com

I bet those wheels rolling over those diamonds in the prototype would make one HELL of a bang; especially on loaded cars. 
 

I had the same issue with a few 45 degree atlas diamonds. I took a small file and slightly widened the space between the running and guard rails and added a .005 shim in the bottom of the flangeway in  the center of the frogs. This was enough to stop the wheels from riding up the point of the frog and stopped the wheels from bottoming out at the frog center. I had to make these mods after the track was inbedded in the road surface on my industrial street tackage modules posted here a while back. Everything runs smooth through the crossings now.
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,4049568
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,3850341,3850499#msg-38504999568
 



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/16 23:00 by SP4360.

tomstp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In watching the video this appears to me to be a
> guard rail problem OR the track rails do not align
> properly letting the wheel hit the point of the
> insulatiing "v".

Other video and observation shows that in all but two of the 9 diamonds, the guard rails are too close to the travel rail. The wheels are hitting on the apex of the guard rail intersection where there is an obtuse angle between them.. Wheel sets with wide gauge get through it without hitting it. Locomotives tend to ride up on it too but in DCC diamonds are always an issue  as power-droppers. I need to wire the rails of the next group.

Bob