Model Railroading > My Manufacturer Rant For The Day

Hi guys,

This REALLY gets my goat. Someone contacted us to tell us the lettering on one of our models was incorrect and he's returning it.

He then explained that he has all of the original stencilling diagrams and this letter should be so high and that letter should be so high etc. etc. The differences were tiny fractions of an inch in HO so nobody else will notice it, but I would rather we got it right than even slightly off. And no, I won't tell you what model it is. If you didn't notice it yet you won't notice it.

Please pass this on to everyone you know. If a manufacturer announces a model and you have ALL the lettering and painting information that will help ensure the model is accurate, PLEASE contact the manufacturer and let them know BEFORE the model is produced! Don't wait until you get the model so you can feel smug about how we got it wrong.

It may feel great to be able to say "I am the expert and I know all the ways that dumb manufacturer got this wrong" but wouldn't it be better to tell your friends "I am the expert and I helped to ensure that the manufacturer got this model right"!!!

This is so frustrating.

OK - rant over. 

-Jason

The person in this case may have assumed that you had access to the same information he had. That doesn't make the assumption valid, of course.

 

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The person in this case may have assumed that you
> had access to the same information he had. That
> doesn't make the assumption valid, of course.
>
>

As an engineer I was taught on just about Day 1, what the first 3 letters of "assume" spell... and was taught too that whenever you assume anything.....you are likely to find yourself earning the title....

A little side note....on the state of education in our country...I told that story to a graduate I was interviewing for a job here and his face took on a the kind of smug puzzled look that a newly-degreed college graduate learns how to make....that " what are you talking about????" look.... ..then he said... ".....what does "ASU" spell???"

True story....

Bob

...no I did not hire him :)



 

You can't everyone evey time. But I received one of your models last week, and I am please just fine. Keep making fine reproductions of prototypes.

Certainly doesn't help that, with some roads, there are or were often variances with prototype lettering placement and/or font (sometimes big diffences) depending on the road number. What might be correct for one particular run number (or series) might be way off for another (sometimes by a few or even several feet). SP "speed' lettering seemed to be really random on certain locos, for example.

 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/17 11:14 by tehachapifan.

Just a thought.....How does the guy with the stencil diagrams know for certain that they were followed. We have all seen so many variations of lettering for the same road because this shop did it this way and that shop did it that way and so on.

I wouldn't give it a second thought, hang in there and keep turning out the great models that you have been and kudos to you. I don't think you are ranting, just being straight up with us as you always have been!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/17 13:36 by pilotblue.

It also does not help when you DO go out of your way to help a manufacturer,  only to be blown off,  ignored, etc, when you DO contact them and offer assistence, but it falls on deaf ears, and the project still gets made, with the wrong information.  

Not talking about Rapido either.  You guys have been GREAT, and very forthcoming about the hobby and industry, and it is much appreciated.  

If someone is that fanatical about paint/lettering etc they should be doing it themselves, expecting manufactures to get it 110% to your expectations is unrealistic on a mass produced china model

pilotblue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a thought.....How does the guy with the
> stencil diagrams know for certain that they were
> followed. We have all seen so many variations of
> lettering for the same road because this shop did
> it this and way that shop did it that way and so
> on.
>
> I wouldn't give it a second thought, hang in there
> and keep turning out the great models that you
> have been and kudos to you. I don't think you are
> ranting, just being straight up with us as you
> always have been!

Amen to that.
 
I acquired a Penn Central painting diagram book at a show a few  years ago, and wound up amazing myself with how FEW of my PC roster shots showed adherence to the appropriate diagrams.  (Or to ANY diagrams for that matter).

 3 foot rule DEFINITLEY applies here. Some people would complain if you hung them with a new rope.

I have official lettering diagrams for an organization owning several hundred engines from coast to coast.

The footnotes say:

- Lettering may be moved to accommodate vents, filters, door hinges, etc as needed
- Local shops may add, alter or remove striping to meet local needs (frame and pilot stripes, end scare stripes, etc)
- Lettering size may be changed to fit properly on the hood or cab.

I always enjoy seeing the differences between the designs created in the office and the designs used in the field.

If you want to see real variations look at the NdeM painted units. On the U36C/C30-7's the positioning red/green separation line varies by at least eight feet and has multiple variations on curvature.

Michael

Jason, thanks for sharing your frustrations here. Your level of interaction and transparency with your hobbyist customers shows that a.) you're proud of the work you do, 2.) you are happy to share, and D.) you are willing to suffer the slings and arrows!

Your comments stand alone, and make perfect sense. The reponse that seems very useful is that modelers "presume" that manufacturers have the info. I think in some cases manufacturers may presume that too, erroneously.

Oh, man... and what a rabbit hole. The more that models strive to be accurate to the day, date, and time, the more we expect more! But some manufacturers -- and perhaps rightly -- don't want to fall down the rabbit hole, having had a track record of sellouts regardless of errors here and there (or here, there, or everywhere). Brass models are sent to China as "prototype research" for plastic models, and those brass models may have been built using drawings prepared in the far-less-prototypical and pre-RPM 1970s. Or a few well-known photos are sent, but not enough to answer "Where does this fransiram coupling go, and is it with four bolts or twelve?"

The other issue is product leads. In a world ("In a world...") where there are slim margins, we still have manufacturers taking gambles and finding themselves with a locomotive that someone else is doing. Or everyone else. We've talked about this: you put out a general request for info and your competitors are tipped years in advance of your plans. You, as a manufacturer who cares about details, days, and dates, will simply need to take longer to develop your data package. A competitor who produces "good enough" models isn't under that restriction, and you could get scooped on a project that barely has enough margin for one manufacturer's version.

Hobby purchasers who wish for the old days of producing for stock, so that they can see the model first and decide, simply haven't kept up with the realities of the last, oh, twenty years or so. And thus you have makers who have to get to production, knowing that when the model is made, the first people they hear from should have been the people they heard from when the model was announced.

There are indeed manufacturers who dismiss, ignore, or do not follow up on offers of data. That frustration is real for a hobbyist who'd like to have a small stake in making the models they want be better, for themselves and for everyone. But it's a reality. It's like letter-writing campaigns and petitions: you don't do it knowing that you'll get the results you want right now. You do it because in the long run, a knowledge base is built.

We can also be more helpful as hobbyists by complimenting what's right. I know that sounds scoldy. But with the years of work it takes to bring one model to market, and the countless hours (mostly volunteer) which go into data packages, it's nice to hear what was done well. Think of every model and every manufacturer as a kid of yours who's brought you something and said "Look what I made!" If you're a supportive parent, you compliment what's good, and offer a few helpful tips. That sure doesn't happen in forums like this one and others, where the first words typed are "I can't believe they got ______ wrong!!!"

Thanks, Jason, for caring. Other manufacturers do too. Build up a relationship with the ones who care, and don't stop trying with the ones who don't seem to. Be supportive, helpful, and don't wait. These days, even the tiniest details might be part of a production decision process. Jason works very hard with many groups to ensure accuracy. Nobody's perfect, but some try harder than others.

And they're just models. We can't eat them (or shouldn't), and they don't cure most diseases. It's all optional.  :-)

~ BZ

 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/17 16:59 by Notch16.

When building the Emeryville station for Amtrak, I was directed by Amtrak's Law Dept. to add the registration mark logo to the illuminated night signage.  I resisted, telling them it would look like a little red dot mistake on the signs at night.  Anyway, they said they were adding it to all signs saying "Amtrak" including locomotives.  If you look at Amtrak loco photos you will see it on some locos; but on most, it is not there.  If you put that on a model loco, you will be right either way, but mostly wrong.  If you do put it on, it will look like a painting mistake.  So much for technical fidelity in the real world and in modeling...

When we finished the restoration of 1522, the CMO at that time insisted on putting a "circle R" on the coonskin  number plate.  Supposedly would keep people from making stuff with the 1522 logo.  It was hogwash and when I inherited the job, we painted it out.
I remember when Jimmy Booth released his beautiful Frisco 4500 4-8-4s somebody bitched that the numbers in the headlight number wings weren't right.  SMH.

Think my answer to the idiot would be send it back if it has not been ran and is undamaged we will refund your money. Then he will either put up or shut up you people do the best that you can do so keep up your good work like you always have.

Jason,

You raise a good point. I have the displeasure of knowing an information hoarder who gets his kicks from "busting" models that didn't match the data. He's a real prince. "Help" is not in his lexicon.

Of course, the flip side is the manufacturer who is given all the data and just doesn't care. One of your competitors has done this twice (that I know of). In one case, a friend handed the owner a stack of lettering and detail information in person. Result? Data ignored. I offered the same person indepth painting information for a different model. Result? Data ignored. In both cases the company made a nice model that could have been stellar if they looked at what people had handed them... for free.

One of my favorite manufacturer stories is an old one involving Broadway Limited. They made an HO B&M E7 but used gold leaf instead of Dulux gold. They are two totally different colors. BLI ran a set of corrected shells and sent them free to anyone who preferred the right colors. That's how you do it.

Rob

 

rapidotrains Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Please pass this on to everyone you know. If a
> manufacturer announces a model and you have ALL
> the lettering and painting information that will
> help ensure the model is accurate, PLEASE contact
> the manufacturer and let them know BEFORE the
> model is produced! Don't wait until you get the
> model so you can feel smug about how we got it
> wrong.
>
> -Jason

Good call. We will all assume that you will be doing it wrong (again) next time.

I respect the work your company has produced for my particular road and and others.   Pleease keep up your excellent attention to detail.
​Don't let the nay sayers pull you down. 

​On a lighter point,  I'm still looking forward to an announcement for the EP 5 in N scale

kpcm

When Broadway Ltd. came out with the E8 in Katy dress, they put the wrong logo on the nose!

That was a major screw up, not in the same league as your description, but some manufacturers 
can really screw up.  One can go to Bing or Google images and see the correct nose logo they should
have used.

I just ordered one of your undec FA2 lokies - if the Katy paint scheme ends up wrong on that one, I'll have 
to hire someone to whack me upside the head.
 

Jason, as a colleague once said to me, you know what you know. It is a real bummer that this guy comes forward after you have released your model, my first thought wonders what his motives for doing that are other than being a troll or just a smart arse. You are right to be annoyed but do not let this get to you. You have produced excellent models of the prototype using the best information you had at the time. What more can be asked of you?

Cheers

Chris