Model Railroading > children is it time to go back and learn ?????

i am beginning to think the school system failed a few people here and I refuse to name names but i am sure anyone who reads here will know who I mean.

Did you guys not learn how to play with other people, I did some research and found most of the post by 2 or 3 people are always flaming someone here. if there is a problem with someone abusing a membership here let the site owner deal with. Not up to us to police other peoples thoughts.

think almost everyone has said something here about ebay and were not selling anything there, (there are when i searched here 373 posts with ebay in subject or body of post).

so why not start actting your IQs or shoe size if you cannot your age if you cannot play in the sandbox and play well. I am sure we all do not like everything we see or is said here. i get so bored of reading the posts about things that interest me to only find the stuff i want to read about full of flames from unhappy children........if you are un happy about something email the person do not take your fight out on the rest of us
stuart in iowa the canadian the peace keeper

I think the problem is lack of moderation.

It is easy for us to judge each other, but it is another think to have a non-biased moderater in place. I know Toad is really busy and this job can't/shouldn't be left JUST up to him.

I think another problem is that people forgot that there is a CLASSIFIED ADS section. If we were to get rid of that section, I wouldn't mind if people placed their ads directly on the board. But, as of now there is a section for sales, so please use it.

Maybe its time to get the facts right. I am the person attacking trainart and it is for a very good reason. Lets look at the history.

Last year Trainart was using this site to regularly sell his wares. People were beginning to complain. So trainart begins running his weathering series, and putting ads at the bottom. Trainart even ran a "sale" of 10 slots to do custom jobs for people here. Posting daily, stating there was "5 slots left, 4 slots left etc etc, please hurry to reserve a space." It got real old. Finally, Todd(the site owner) stepped in and asked him to stop or take out ads on this site. Of course trainart did not. He left in a big huff, saying he would never return.(he was not banned) Remember also that all this took place when Todd(site owner of trainorders) was straped for cash and was threatening to shut the site down due to lack of funds. I asked trainart to send a donation to Todd to compensate him for his sales on this site and he did not. (He sold a couple thousand dollars on this site alone) Other members were sending Todd $5-20 to help Todd out as we loved this site and wanted him to keep it up. Bottom line, Todd went to a fee to join this site and this seems to have helped.


Since trainart has left, the sales BS stopped and it has been nice. Then he returns. He announces that he is out of the sales business and will be turning off his website to focus on building a layout for his dad. He is going to post a few layout pictures from time to time to show progress. OK, I'm fine with that. I will let things be. 24 hours later, he posts the first picture of the Maersk SD60M that he tried to sell here in the past and states that it is not for sale. I see through it and challenge him here on this site that he is back to his old ways. The next day the BN switcher appears. He is just showing off his excellent weathering job and it is not for sale. I challenge him again. This week, both units appear in Ebay for sale. Point, Game, Match.

I have not attacked anyone else here except BCM for attacking Athearn.

So please get your facts straight. I will not tolerate Trainart's sales tactics and I have no plans to attack anyone else. I have helped plenty of people on this group and am here to discuss model railroading.

As I have said all along,

I stand by my comments.

brfriedm

If trainart wants to post progress pictures of his layout he is building for his dad, that is fine with me. Stop the structure and engine/freightcar sales ads and there will be peace. As of yet, no layout pictures.

This seems to have gotten way out of hand. From my seat, Trainart seems to have tried to address Bruce's objections. However, his explanation was rejected - does Bruce have anything solid to back this?

Assuming Trainart *is* being straight with us (benefit of the doubt), he still should be more careful about timing his posts, so that an item is *sold* before he posts it, preventing the *appearance* of wrongdoing.

That being said, perhaps less time should be spent flaming back and forth, and more collecting hard information. If Bruce does have substantiation to his claim of inappropriate advertising, he should pass it to Todd for a decision. We *should* moderate ourselves, but that has obviously broken down here.

B-Dubya out -

I do appreciate the techniques that have been described in detail by trainart and others, but this venue is no place for ads (unless some ad space is purchased). Keep in mind that I do see many people ask to purchase a specific model or complete a certain modification for them (non-trainart). Since there is a mailbox here, why don't those inquiries go directly to the poster's mailbox, instead of posts here? With no ads, and no solicited/unsolicited sales-related posts here, everyone should be happy, even trainart.

So, where do you draw the line? it is a little gray. Certainly someone telling us that 'so-and-so' is coming out with a new 'something' can be good, since we all don't have time to monitor every manufacturer's website or discussion group. Is that a solicitation? Do we know for sure the poster doesn't work for 'so-and-so'? I've seen some hobby shop recommendations that 'smell' like the owner is posting. Is that bad? Again, its a gray area. That's where Todd comes in. He collects the complaints and has to make the decision of accepting or rejecting someone's behavior.

So what's my point? Why waste bandwidth flaming someone about their abuse of the site....just send your comments to Todd. Hopefully he'll be able to resolve the issue.

BTW, I did see that Maersk SD60M on ebay also....I think it would have looked better if he would have centered the lettering on the long hood.

chicagoRob

Hello,
I have given nothing but (I think) helpful ideas to the fellow model railroaders. I really do get upset when you guys downplay "trainart"....if he sells stuff or gives us links who cares? I visit his links to see what he has, do I ever buy...nope, but i like getting his ideas on how to modify my locos....traincars...whatever. He has great models, and great ideas, maybe some not as good as others...but who cares. Is this not an idea, or a helping page?
I remember one time in college, (graphic design) one of my professors, found that I was a model railroader....and he said and I quote....."You people are so friggin anal"...and the sad thing is....I believe it. I see everyone complaining....insted of complementing....or even helping...
If you guys are so damn perfect.....where are you?? I dont see you in any magazine, or publication, let alone you dont post here. No wonder why people dont "get into" trains...its because of people like you. People have posted some wacky stuff, recently a table-top train, engines without handrails.....rocks as scenery....(indiorails?) I liked it...hell thats how I (and Im sure most of us) started out. If he/she (sorry) is getting started....why not support...why rag?
All I see here is complaining and not much helping. How about giving your advice to someone young...or helping that person out so he/she can make the model better?
Just make sure everyone remembers one thing.....help each other out, this (i Suppose) is not complain central. You have a beef? Then show us something better that you did! If you can do better, then post it...maybe some of us can grab your ideas, and use your ideas and techniques.
This is a helping page, and idea page, not to listen to your rant on how perfect you are. If you were so perfect....you wouldnt be reading this/or visiting this page ....right???? Lay off!!!
TheHammer
Mark!

Trainart:

Hit the road.

You are full of garbage.

Please do not post models again, because we both know despite what you say, within a month they WILL be for SALE on ebay or at a trainshow. (If people want to see your work, they can check out your web-site)

Is there something wrong with selling stuff? No, not at all. But PLEASE don't play the innocent guy especially when in your posts say that the models your a displaying are NOT for sale.

I'm sick of you getting free advertising and I am sick of seeing instances where you state that nothing is for sale, when obviously business is doing good.

since i thought you were a pretty nice guy. If he gets free advertising...so what???? Really does it make a big deal, he does great models and has a right to show it!!!
Trainz, I cannot judge you since I dont even know you, but everyone does thier own stuff here and sometimes sells it...big whoop? You dont wanna buy.....dont buy....simple as that. Im not gonna stick up for Trainart, but who cares if he sells his stuff...big deal? He makes good stuff and sells it...whats so bad about that..? Im sure if you had the talent, you would as well.....am I right? Sure I am.
Trainz...just make sure you re-think your position, before you make comments such as these.
Just lets all get along here, as I said.....this board is not to belittle, but to help people....and help I will...Trainart, trainz, and whomever.....its just Model Railroading kids........just models...take it easy and appreciate everyones work....
TheHammer
Mark

hammer wrote:
>
> Trainz...just make sure you re-think your position, before you
> make comments such as these.

I don't think you can see through the smoke and mirrors. The guy is about making money. He is not for the betterment of the hobby, rather to sell items. If we wasn't, then I challenge him to offer his weathering techniques for FREE rather than having to charge for them on his web-site.

I don't know of many modellers that spend hours on a model, show it off, then sell it right away (sounds fishy). He constantly and indirectly 'advertises' his products.

If you like his models, then I invite you to visit his site.

trainz wrote:

"I don't know of many modellers that spend hours on a model, show it off, then sell it right away (sounds fishy)."

Well now you know one more. ME. I used to do just that when I had more free time before career, family and my passion for playing with 1:1 scale steam locomotives took over. I wasn't into it for the money, which is little compared to the effort involved, I was addicted to building SP units. Albeit this was many years ago and eBay didn't exist and most of the units I did unload went to friends who also modeled the SP.

I guess it was kinda like an addiction...Oh sorry about that...Maybe it was all that Tenax or Testors, CA, and Floquil with Diosol going off all the time.

At any rate I still build 'em for myself and have pawned a few off on eBay. (OOPS! I may have commited a crime here!)


SandingValve
(soon to be bum rushed by the Local Board Monitors)

I have built a few models and showed off images of models I was building for others. Heck I've seen some blatent advertising on the model board in the past couple months. No one seems to care then, but when the one person you blasted before comes back you raise a big stink. Who really cares, you're wasting more of Todd's bandwith posting your petty gripes and you're more disruptive than a few photos or even a small add. If trainart wants to sell his stuff on ebay thats his choice, but he has never posted a link to the items in question.

Trainart made bad descisions in the past as to advertising and how he presented things on the site. I personally think the lot of you are reading too far into his messages and drawing your own conclusions from what has happened in the past and not the present. If posting a photo of something you once sold or just built implies that you are going to be selling it why don't you get after anyone that posts a photo of their just completed models?

Do the rest of us a favor and keep your complaints to yourself or take them up with Todd. But remember Trainart has yet to do anything wrong on here since he came back.

-=Andrew=-

Trainart:

Don't Hit the road.

You are Not full of garbage.

Please do post models again, because we both know despite what they say, within a month they may or may not be for SALE on ebay or at a trainshow. Who cares? (If people want to see your work, they can check out your web-site OR they can come here and learn some new ideas and techniques. Or just to look at your models. If anything, we can come here and enjoy this board FOR WHAT IT WAS MEANT FOR.)

Is there something wrong with selling stuff? No, not at all. But just play the innocent guy especially when you have committed no wrong doing.

I'm sick of all of the flaming, when obviously it is getting no one anywhere.

Now. Can we just move on to another thread? I think this one has been done to death. Guys, a peace offering..... Mr. Freidman, beautiful layout, I just stopped by the site and I was impressed. I have RR clipart of scrolling trains (Actually they marquee across the site) and have TONS of Chessie, NS, Family Lines and CSX engines and cars, though not on my website. Email me if your interested. The Website adress is: <a href="http://www.railroadtrainingservices.com/gifs&quot;&gt;RTS Shops</a>. Lance, feel free to use these gifs as well, they are free to use for anyone interested. Contact me if you'd like to have SD90BAC's made as well as any other fantasy units. I would be happy to oblige as well.

Stuart,

EXCELLENT post. stuart wrote:
>
> i am beginning to think the school system failed a few people
> here and I refuse to name names but i am sure anyone who reads
> here will know who I mean.
>
> Did you guys not learn how to play with other people, I did
> some research and found most of the post by 2 or 3 people are
> always flaming someone here. if there is a problem with someone
> abusing a membership here let the site owner deal with. Not up
> to us to police other peoples thoughts.
>
> think almost everyone has said something here about ebay and
> were not selling anything there, (there are when i searched
> here 373 posts with ebay in subject or body of post).
>
> so why not start actting your IQs or shoe size if you cannot
> your age if you cannot play in the sandbox and play well. I am
> sure we all do not like everything we see or is said here. i
> get so bored of reading the posts about things that interest
> me to only find the stuff i want to read about full of flames
> from unhappy children........if you are un happy about
> something email the person do not take your fight out on the
> rest of us
> stuart in iowa the canadian the peace keeper

I'm ignorant to what has happened over the past months concerning this problem of "free advertising" on TO. What is apparant from reading this and the previous thread:

-Trainart was advertising his products on this Web-site but, has
stopped "direct selling" on TO

-His merchandise is still being viewed on TO

-Because of the previous thread, those who are interested in his
merchandise now know where to go to buy... ebay

Sounds to me like the thread participants have helped him advertise his new "sales strategy". It's called "saturation". Get your product before the public in as many venues as possible. I believe the complaints have worked to spread the word about Trainart's new format.
Steve

To tell the truth I would much rather read about some model that is for sale than read a series of flames. Hopefully we are not going back to the good old days of Tony C. et al.
Ralph

mennellrm wrote:
>
> To tell the truth I would much rather read about some model
> that is for sale than read a series of flames. Hopefully we are
> not going back to the good old days of Tony C. et al.
> Ralph

I think most people share your sentiments... it's just that many realize running a site such as TO costs real money that often doesn't show returns. I don't think the real issue revolves on whether someone sells their models or not. What I believe it comes down to, is if someone is going to try and promote their business... even indirectly... on Todd's dime, that they should do what's right and at least be willing to give him a cut of the action.