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Model Railroading > SP Cab-Forward in gray?


Date: 02/13/05 11:39
SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: tmotor

BLI is offering the SP AC-4 4102 with a gray boiler. I've only seen images of the prototypes in basic black. Where did SP run this color scheme? Coastline on the Cuesta grade perhaps...

Thank you in advance for sharing your expertise. ;-)





Date: 02/13/05 16:47
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: wlankenau

I remember seeing builder's photos of gray-boilered Cab-Forwards. But I don't recall seeing photos of engines in this paint scheme in service. Usually only one engine of an order would be photographed by the builder and it would often get white striped tires and other non-standard paint modifications. So it's possible that BLI followed a builders photo. But I'm not an Espee steam expert. Also at one time, generally pre-1920 or so, many engines had light colored "Russia iron" boiler jackets. But a 4-8-8-2 is a little new for that, I'd think.

Walt



Date: 02/13/05 20:11
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: africansteam

tmotor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BLI is offering the SP AC-4 4102 with a gray
> boiler. I've only seen images of the prototypes
> in basic black. Where did SP run this color
> scheme? Coastline on the Cuesta grade perhaps...

Page 156 of Diebert and Strapac's SP Compendium showa a picture of a 2-6-0 built by the Sacramento shops in 1918. It is described as follows: The #1825 is portrayed at the Sacramento roundhouse on February 27, 1918, with a graphited smokebox, red cab roof, black painted domes, and a natural metal boiler and cylinder jackets. This paint scheme might still have been typical of some new power 10 years later, when the 4102 was delivered. AC-6 No. 4126, shown on page 227, appears to be wearing a similar scheme.

Africansteam





Date: 02/13/05 23:05
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: n6nvr

No not really, the 4216 appears to have the standard graphite "paint" on the firebox. And possibly polished steel jacketing for the formal portraits, which was used in formal portraits. But it looks like standard black to me. According to the Compendium cited above (pgs 12 and 13) thiis polished jacketing would reflect the sky and appear lighter in bB&W photos. Don't forget the different B&W films would show various colors differently when using different filters and some colors could "disappear" with some combinations. I don't recall seeing any other mention of SP locomotives with grey jackets. There is a picture of a 2-8-0 on pg 187 that shows the polished jacket and it does look significantly lighter than the other black areas and darker than the graphite smokebox.



Date: 02/14/05 09:33
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: africansteam

n6nvr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No not really, the 4216 appears to have the
> standard graphite "paint" on the firebox. (etc).

Hmmm. Makes one wonder where BLI got their information for the paint on this model.

Africansteam





Date: 02/14/05 09:56
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: wlankenau

This link oughta shed some light on the subject:

Builder's photo of SP 4102

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sp4102a.jpg

Someone (Bob Church?) has done a thorough paper-and-ink reference work (called a... book?) that was entitled "Cab-Forward," and if anyone has access to that I'm sure it would answer most of our questions.

Walt




Date: 02/14/05 10:34
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: africansteam

wlankenau Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This link oughta shed some light on the subject:
>

By Jove, Walt, I think you've solved the mystery. I have Church's book, but Old Fart Syndrome set in, and it never occurred to refer to it.

Africansteam





Date: 02/14/05 11:03
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: Andre

This was a standard paint scheme from the Roseville shops the only problem is that in the photos it appears to be grey but in reality it was a grey - green color, I have herd it referred to as the Roseville Grey Paint Scheme. Some of the Cab forwards came painted this way from the manufactures. If I remember right it was phased out as a paint scheme in 1936 or so. I am writing this from work and can not check either the cab forward book or the other book a Century of SP Steam Locomotives but I do know that there is a photo of one of the cab forwards in either one of these two books in this paint scheme.

André



Date: 02/14/05 12:13
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: WP282

The gray boiler scheme was applied by Baldwin in Philadelphia for photo purposes only. From what I have read in Bob Church's book, the boiler was repainted afterword. The gray/green scheme referred to in an earlier post was applied to some MT class 4-8-2's in the 'thirties.

WP Mike



Date: 02/14/05 12:30
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: n6nvr

africansteam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n6nvr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No not really, the 4216 appears to have the
> > standard graphite "paint" on the firebox.
> (etc).
>
> Hmmm. Makes one wonder where BLI got their
> information for the paint on this model.
>
> Africansteam
>
>
>
The same guy whut told Irv Athearn that there Daylight F's??? (smiley)

I expect that the reality is that there were some "for the record phote" paint jobs that were applied for photo purposes to optimize the result with the film available that were never intended to be operational paint schemes and this may have been one. It's so at odds with other schemes the company used and you can probably safely assume they weren't going to have a special scheme for drag freight engines.

I'm going to wait until they fire sale them and repaint it.




Date: 02/14/05 14:38
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: wlankenau

Builder's photos are funny things. Staufer's "Steam Power of the New York Central Vol. 1" has builder's photos of both sides of the same NYC L3b Mohawk. The engineer's side has white wheel tires on engine and tender, white running board edges, and a nice contrasting builder's plate (I think these were Limas, so the plate would have been red). The fireman's side is solid, unrelieved black (the b/p might be red), as the balance of the order was probably painted... on both sides. So for in-service appearance, a builder's photo can be basically worthless.

Walt



Date: 02/14/05 15:28
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: BarstowRick

n6nvr Wrote:
> >
> The same guy whut told Irv Athearn that there
> Daylight F's??? (smiley)
>
>
So, glad I wasn't the one who told Irv Athearn.

Although, I did chase a story of a FT daylight engine. I had heard a story from my railroading family. What I thought they said, wasn't what they meant. I searched photo archives, books and rosters for a "Daylighter" FT type. Spawned to lengthy threads here on trainorders.com. The truth had to come out. I learned that what most of us foamers refer to as the "Black Widow" paint scheme, was the alleged "Daylight Engine" because, it was the dedicated F type assigned to pull the daylight passenger trains. Just a railroad employee monicker that kept me guessing for over 40 years. I would have never guessed it.

N6nvr was straight to the point with me and so was Topper. Do you think I wanted to give-up the story. Heck no. Look at all the fun I had. Sort of like looking for "The Dutchmans", lost gold mine.

Never mind the Life Like F7's in the daylight paint scheme running around my layout. A privately operated, short line utilizing the daylight paint scheme, jobbed out strictly for railfan trips. A dinner train... Of Course.

Isn't it fun!

RickH



Date: 02/14/05 23:24
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: n6nvr

I've got an A-B-A or maybe even A-B-B-A set of them. Only way I could get decent running Daylight diesels in my budget at the time.. They have been allocated to the conversion shops and like the prototypes (more or less) will be converted into CF-7s. for both my V&T and the Inyo Development Company. The major construction company for the layout.



Date: 02/15/05 10:43
Re: SP Cab-Forward in gray?
Author: stivmac

I onder if the reason the builders photos in light colors was to better show the details of the equiptment for record keeping reasons. Its easier in a B/W pic to see the appliances and positioning when its done this way. Just speculation, but still...



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