Passenger Trains > Another Amtrak Police State Story...

I sleep better knowing that America is protected from yet another person with
a camera on a train.

It's quite pathetic that this (and taking your shoes off at the airport)
is what passes for national security.

From: http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/war_and_peace/every_day_diplomacy.php

Countries, like people, make friends with others one at a time. This is a story of one failure. In fairness to an unknown visitor to our country, imagine yourself in his place. The scene is on a recent Amtrak trip between New York City and Boston. The conductor collects tickets, requests identification, folds destination stubs into seatbacks, moves on to other cars. An older man across the aisle, traveling alone, shows his passport. It is clear from their conversation he doesn’t know English.

After decades as a frequent traveler, I have thousands of pictures -- scenery, buildings, people, architecture, from around the world. Today the train passes a lovely stretch of Connecticut shore, tidal marshes, nesting ospreys, the Long Island Sound. What little attention I pay as the visitor takes pictures, is that I’m impressed with his equipment. He and I, unknown to each other, are members of a picture-taking culture, fellow citizens of a show-and-tell world. I wonder if his will join the thousands on YouTube. I imagine, after his return home, how many friends he will impress with stories and pictures of this mild, early autumn, Saturday morning journey along the New England shoreline.

The train is a half hour west of New Haven when the conductor, having finished her original rounds, reappears. She moves down the aisle, looks, stops between our seats, faces the person taking pictures. “Sir, in the interest of national security, we do not allow pictures to be taken of or from this train.” He starts, “I…….” but, without English, his response trails off into silence. The conductor, speaking louder, forcefully: “Sir, I will confiscate that camera if you don’t put it away.” Again, little response. “Sir, this is a security matter! We cannot allow pictures.” She turns away abruptly and, as she moves down the aisle, calls over her shoulder, in a very loud voice, “Put. It. Away!” He packs his camera.

Within a minute after our arrival in New Haven, two armed police officers entered the car, approached my neighbor’s seat. “Sir, we're removing you from this train.” “I….;” “I……” “Sir, you have breached security regulations. We must remove you from this train.” “I…,” “I…..” “Sir, we are not going to delay this train because of you. You will get off, or we will remove you physically.” “I…..”

Nearby passengers stir. One says, “It’s obvious he doesn’t speak English. There are people here who speak more than one language. Perhaps we can help.” Different ones ask about the traveler’s language; learn he speaks Japanese. For me, a sudden flash of memory -- a student at International Christian University in Japan, I took countless pictures without arousing suspicion.

The police speak through the interpreter, with the impatience of authority. “The conductor asked this man three times to discontinue. We must remove him from the train.” The traveler hears the translation, is befuddled. Hidden beneath the commotion is a cross-cultural drama. With the appearance of police officers, this quiet visitor is embarrassed to find he is the center of attention. The officers explain, “After we remove him from the train, when we are through our investigation, we will put him on the next train.” The woman translates. The passenger replies, “I’m meeting relatives in Boston. They cannot be reached by phone. They expect me and will be worried when I do not arrive on schedule.” “Our task,” the police repeat, "is to remove you from this train. If necessary, we will do so by force. After we have finished the investigation, we’ll put you on another train.” The woman translates. The traveler gathers his belongings and departs.

My earlier suggestion that you imagine being in his place leaves you free to respond and draw your conclusions. Remember: you’ve been removed from the train, are being interrogated, perhaps having your equipment confiscated; while I continue to do what I take for granted – traveling unimpeded, on to Providence.

The more I replay the scene, the more troublesome it is. It is the stuff of nightmares. Relations between people and countries lie at the heart of the issue. The abstract terms that inform political and social debate appear, as if in person, unexpectedly, near enough to hear, touch, feel. Taking no position is not an option. As an educator, I would prepare and deliver a lecture on how others perceive America in the world community, then seek an audience. I'll spare you. But -- I just watched armed police officers remove a visitor from the train for taking pictures. I don't understand this. I’m disturbed – no, shaken – to bear witness to these events. Other passengers react with surprise and anger. “Since when is it illegal to take pictures?” “Nobody’s ever bothered me about it.” “Is the only photography allowed from the space station and Google Earth? These people take pictures of everything, including my house, without my permission, and they’re instantly available on the internet.” An older traveler reflected, “I witnessed this personally in police states during the war in Europe.”

In The Terror Presidency, Jack Goldsmith says it is right for a country to meet a threat in a way that keeps us safe, but must also “minimize unnecessary intrusion on …life, liberty and property.... and all those who are enjoying them with us.” One passenger asked, “Would someone please explain the threat posed by taking pictures from the train?”

In Matt Stoller’s review of A Tragic Legacy, he says the current administration has “transformed the way (people) speak about our country and its role in the world.” The good-versus-evil mentality has “altered the political system of our country” and our relationship with the rest of the world – in ways which are “inappropriate for a modern power in a time of global turmoil.”

It doesn't take more than five minutes, in any airport in this country, before I hear the loudspeaker, "The current terror threat is elevated." We hear “terror” endlessly – traveling, at home, on television, in the news. Recent political campaigns have reminded – no, badgered – us, to be very afraid. What did Franklin Roosevelt say, that “the only thing we have to fear is fear itself.” Terror. Paranoia. We can no longer differentiate between terrors. Is this our generation’s enlightened contribution to American culture?

Watching police escort a visitor off the train, I felt anger, not comfort. This action was beyond irritating. It is intolerable, unacceptable. If it bothered me, it paled in comparison to the way it inconvenienced, and will long trouble, this visitor to our country. We disrupted his travel plans and family reunion. Even greater than the psychological damage we inflicted is the harm we’ve done to ourselves. We missed an opportunity to show kindness, to be ambassadors of goodwill. The visitor will return home. He will indeed impress many people – not with pleasant memories and pictures of a quiet morning trip along the New England coast, but with a story of being removed and detained by American police for taking pictures. Do we imagine we’ve gained anything because a single visitor returns home with stories of mistreatment?

We engage in diplomacy whenever we have contact with visitors or travel abroad ourselves. If we conduct ourselves poorly as daily ambassadors, it is no wonder our country suffers a tarnished relationship with the world.

That's what happens when you live in a state of terror hysteria.

Is it actually Amtrak's policy to not allow photos to be taken, or is this the result of some overzealous employee's hysteria?

And if it's Amtrak's policy, what is that all about?

Was there maybe a government or military installation along the route?

SP7615

The Submarine Base at New London is visible to the North when X-ing the Thames.

SP7615 Wrote:
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> Was there maybe a government or military
> installation along the route?

As far as I know, there is nothing along that part of the Northeast Corridor from which any revealing, national-security-sensitive photograph could be taken. As in yes, from the New London station, you can probably see the Electric Boat shipyard across the harbor, but so can everybody else in New London.* And since this passenger was Boston-bound, and the story indicates he was kidnapped by the authorities in New Haven, the train hadn't gotten to New London yet anyway.

This business about no photography aboard or of the trains is security-paranoid-employees-overstepping-their-bounds BULLS**T and I hope Amtrak is somehow severely embarrassed for having perpetrated it.

*-Edited to add: Oh yes, the Sub Base itself is a couple of miles up the river, too, but there's nothing that could be photographed in any detail from the Thames bridge....

For the general public, this piece appears to be more of an op-ed piece on the current pathetic state of quasi-national-security paranoia that is rampant in the USA - particularly in the Northeast - than it is a criticism of Amtrak.

However, assuming the description of the events is true - if what transpired here is not in accordance with company policy, it is another illustration of how pathetically little control the company has over what really occurs aboard its trains, something we already know from commentary from all manner of credible sources.

Whether according to company policy or not, this ridiculous incident occurred on an Amtrak train and was brought about by the officious actions of an Amtrak employee acting under color of authority while in the employ of the company, while wearing the Amtrak uniform, and while receiving pay from Amtrak for abusing a fellow human being. Amtrak must be shouldered with the blame.

"We do not allow pictures to be taken of or from this train?" For shame, Amtrak.

-GP

TexBob- Thank you for sharing this story. It is sad and a disgrace to this country of ours. Has the Holocaust re-emerged with all of this "police state" business that goes on all the time ?? Think about it..

I'll bet that "woman" conductor had the last laugh and enjoyed her "power trip"... I'll bet THAT really made her day !! Throwing a visitor off of HER train ??

First off, she needs to be FIRED...
Secondly, the two armed "goons" need to be FIRED too!

KRK

I have hours of video from the windows of Amtrak's trains, if fact in Amtrak's little cards that are placed in sleeping cars it TELLS YOU TO HAVE CAMERA ready at certain locations! Even tells you what side of the train to be on for best photos!

I have a friend who was riding the Adirondack down to NY and he took a picture on the train and the conductors gave him hell, interrogated him, and made him delete all his photos off of his camera.

The official Adirondack Route Guide from Amtrak itself also notes and PROMOTES places along the route to take pictures and have the camera ready.

http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/routeguideadirondack.pdf

WTF is going on here?

I've taken plenty of pictures from Acela trains along the Connecticut coast and posted some on this board. No one has ever given me a hard time for it. If photography is banned, Amtrak certainly keeps that a secret. In fact, they even promote it in ads for the recreational value of train travel.

If this story is true - big if - someone should be fired. If the conductor was following Amtrak policy, the maker of the policy should go. So should the Amtrak lawyer who approved it, assuming that happened. If the conductor was making her own policy, she should go. There are a few petty tyrants among the otherwise solid group of employees working the corridor - I don't know if she is one of them, but if the story is accurate - again, if - it certainly sounds like the case.

If I were the traveler in question, I would be preparing a lawsuit against Amtrak and the employees involved. Not because I want their money, but because that seems to be the only way these days to bludgeon some sense into those who will use "national security" to bully others.

Dave

Step over the homeless

Walk way way way around the gangs tagging everything in sight

Tip your hat to the solicitors and other pests

And grab your knight stick, charge full speed and beat the heck out of the guy with the camera

Hey, everyone, get a grip.

Do you see the hysteria being whipped up in this thread in response to an anonymous posting whose credibility cannot be verified? This is the mirror image of the hysteria being alluded to in the story. Unless we can verify from multiple sources, this is not "news"; it may simply be the product of a fertile, though twisted, imagination.

Though I can >imagine< this happening, it seems really odd. Even though some conductors are odd, 99% are reasonable individuals and don't make up their own rules (because Amtrak certainly has no policy against photography from trains!)

I would have to assert that just because you found this on the Web, does not make it truthful. I am reminded of an old saying:

"Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see."

Of course, I have to say something about this. I can't let this BS slip by without adding some realism to this thing.

First and foremost, please note that this is NOT an "article". Also, it is NOT an op-ed piece. If you go the website listed, this is nothing more than an INTERNET BLOG. That's it folks---it's a blog!!!! What does this mean? Well, I can tell you what it does NOT mean: "If it's on the internet, it must be true". Every word in this piece MUST be looked at with skepticism.

Now that we know this is somebody's blog, it can be picked apart a little bit better. Specifically:

The guy writing this blog has not backed up ANYTHING he said with any official sources. Nothing from Amtrak. Nothing from a credible news source. Nothing from Amtrak Police Department. Before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of hating America, hating Amtrak, hating cops, and hating life......take a step back, take a deep breath, and realize that you are reading internet junk.

It doesn't matter if you are liberal-leaning or conservative-leaning, but what DOES matter is that you understand the leaning of the author. This helps to put in perspective what you are actually reading. For example:

There are many, many, many examples in the writer's language that he is coming from an extreme left-wing viewpoint of things. "Armed police" (are there any other type of police??), "countries make friends one at a time" (sure, let's get friendly with Iran and smile when they launch nuclear missiles at Israel), "In Matt Stoller’s review of A Tragic Legacy, he says the current administration has “transformed the way (people) speak about our country and its role in the world" (more hate towards America....hmmmm.....people don't seem to be fleeing their countries to get anywhere else but HERE!)......

The article is filled with liberal catch-phrases. Right, wrong, or indifferent....that's not my point. My point is that readers of this crap need to understand that it is only a blog, and that the author has an extremely one-side view of things.

WAF Wrote:
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> That's what happens when you live in a state of
> terror hysteria.

Amen, bro, amen. You said it all in one sentence.

Highspeed Wrote:
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> Hey, everyone, get a grip.
>
> Do you see the hysteria being whipped up in this
> thread in response to an anonymous posting whose
> credibility cannot be verified?

Hardly anonymous. Todd, as well as a fair amount of
other guys here know me. Additionally, the referenced article
is bylined.

> Unless we can verify from multiple sources,
> this is not "news"; it may simply be the product
> of a fertile, though twisted, imagination.

Sorry, just asserting it *might* be untrue is not an argument.
Multiple sources? How about all of the camera toting
members of this board that have been detained/rousted by the
authorities for taking pictures from public property?

> Though I can >imagine< this happening, it seems
> really odd. Even though some conductors are odd,
> 99% are reasonable individuals and don't make up
> their own rules (because Amtrak certainly has no
> policy against photography from trains!)

No imagining needed. New York Transit and Chicago's Metra
have tried to implement blanket bans against photography.

Whether Amtrak has a formal policy against photography is
irrelevant to this tourist. Additionally, the notion that only 1%
of Amtrak employees are power crazed individuals that make up their
own rules (with Amtrak police back-up!) is not too comforting.

> I would have to assert that just because you found
> this on the Web, does not make it truthful. I am
> reminded of an old saying:
> "Believe none of what you read and only half of
> what you see."

Sorry, but quoting slogans from the X-Files does not support
your contention that what I have posted is untrue.

Too many of us have *been there, done that* to agree with your
suggestion that this is some *internet conspiracy theory*.

Feel free to actually disprove any of the points vs. just saying
"they might be false because we're on the web"...

I don't think he's referring to you as being anonymous. He is referring to the blogger who made the comments.

TexBob Wrote:
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> Hardly anonymous. Todd, as well as a fair amount
> of
> other guys here know me.

WAF Wrote:
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> That's what happens when you live in a state of
> terror hysteria.


I live in the state of West Virginia.

:-)

TexBob Wrote:
...
> Feel free to actually disprove any of the points
> vs. just saying
> "they might be false because we're on the web"...

Actually, since YOU made the original post, it is up to YOU to prove that it is true. Otherwise all you are doing is spreading a silly, wild-a$$ed rumour and should state as such if you are going to make inflammatory posts. Or better yet, check out and validate the information first (maybe get a train number and date). Debating an incident that maybe happened, maybe didn't is pretty ridiculous don't you think?

Well, I'm going to repeat that a similar thing happened to my friend on the Adirondack...

My friend snapped a photo of the inside of the train from his seat. IMO, a very harmless photo. The vacation photo album was to have a nice photo of what the inside of the train looked like from his seat.

The AC went balistic, demanded no photos of the train are to be taken. Cited National Security, etc. etc. Demaned all his photos be erased from the camera. Then hauled him off to the Conductor's table for further interrogation. The Conductor kind of said the same thing, and ordered that all the photos be deleted off of the camera, until the camera read zero photos in the memory. They made him verify it read zero photos. Otherwise they would confisicate the camera. They futher interrogated him about his travel plans, and then they told him they are concerned with national security which is why they felt they had to do this.

An hour or so later my friend was called back to the conductor's table and was further interrogated about it. My friend said the Conductor then tried to smooth things out, again citing national security and blah blah and hoped my friend understood and didn't have any hard feelings. My friend actually said they wanted to make sure he was ok with the incident and that there was no need to take any further action (I.E Complain to someone when he got off the train!) My friend stated that it seemed to him the Conductor actually thought the AC had stepped a little over line, but was essentially backing him up and covering is butt.

My friend said all this interrogation took about 45 minutes. My thoughts are, don't they have a train to operating? My friend said his whole trip was ruined by this whole incident.