Passenger Trains > Metrolink was given delay in block sign waiver

Not that it would have prevented the Chatsworth incident, nor would they be worth a crap anywhere in L.A. where graffiti is prolific, but here is a story on the DIB sign waiver.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-metrolink-signs17-2009dec17,0,5114265.story?track=rss

From what I saw... would the Delayed in Block Rule be 100% moot in this situation, as there was an intermediate signal right off the Platform?

drgwAZ1986 Wrote:
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> From what I saw... would the Delayed in Block Rule
> be 100% moot in this situation, as there was an
> intermediate signal right off the Platform?

The intermediate signal was just east of the platform. A westbound, like the ill-fated #111 wouldn't see another signal on it reached the control point at the end of the siding. If you can see the next signal (reported as both yes and no at Chatsworth), they you are fine. Unless its red and your text messaging of course.

I find that if you "forget" the rule or simply ignore it, the addition of a "DIB" sign won't be that effective.

A DIB sign is needed if there is no visibility of a signal from where the train is frequently stopped, to remind the engineer that the signal he/she last saw may no longer be applicable: run at reduced speed until the next signal is visible.
At Chatsworth, trains leaving the station in either direction have signals visible so I don't think a DIB sign or rule applies as the signal aspect is visible and governs.

drgwAZ1986 Wrote:
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> From what I saw... would the Delayed in Block Rule
> be 100% moot in this situation, as there was an
> intermediate signal right off the Platform?


The DIB rules are never Moot, we've been delayed in the block departing a station with three tenths of a mile to the next signal straight shot... If you can't clearly see the signal (In my example it was obscured by thick fog) then you proceed expecting it to be a red until you can confirm otherwise. The Westbound signal there out of Chatsworth is over a mile from the station, even with a straight shot to the signal a dim halogen bulb and rustling tree could easily make the signal indiscernable from the cab while stopped.

What WOULD render DIB moot is the installation of Cab Signalling with Automated Speed Control.

I agree with the posters above that an engineer should be able to see the next signal from the platform at Chatsworth.

Let me ask a question about a location South of there, Fullerton. Many times I have seen No 4 arrive at Fullerton and knock down the clear signal at the East end of the platform. They spend far longer loading passengers than a commuter would and then when they are done they just blast off. It seems to me that they have been delayed in block and to boot they are going around a curve. I realize that as soon as they are around the curve you can seen the next intermediate, even before they get to Raymond Ave, but to me, I would think they would need to start off a little slower than they do. Can any Amtrak folks enlighten me?

DIB applies any time your train slows to or below 10 mph, or you STOP for any reason.
In CTC DIB is maximum authorized speed PREPAIRED to stop at the next signal. If the
next signal is a PROCEED indication High Ball. In CTC their is no speed requirement.

In ABS your at 40 mph ( for Passenger Restricted speed for Freight )until the next
signal indication is visible and it is a proceed indication. The reason for this is
that the dispatcher does not control the signal system like they do in CTC.

At Amtrak and Metrolink I always reminded the engineer when we left any station that required DIB.

When Amtrak knocks down the signal at the East end of Fullerton's platform they came
in on a CLEAR signal. If for any reason the Dispatcher needs to change their route and
drop a signal they must contact the train and inform them of this change. So again we are
back to Maximum authorized speed PREPAIRED to STOP at the next signal.

In order to place DIB signs, lets look at the Valley line with all the industries. You would need
to place DIB signs all along their. This just gets more and more stupid by the day.
If you don't know the rules and your job stay home. Let the professionals do the work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/09 09:33 by SDP40F.

SDP40F Wrote:
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> When Amtrak knocks down the signal at the East end
> of Fullerton's platform they came
> in on a CLEAR signal. If for any reason the
> Dispatcher needs to change their route and
> drop a signal they must contact the train and
> inform them of this change. So again we are
> back to Maximum authorized speed PREPAIRED to STOP
> at the next signal.

Thanks, I'll buy that explanation.

The "Delay In Block" rule in question would be the rules created by FRA Emergency Order 20 (EO 20 Notice 2 relating to DIB rules can be found here: http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/eo20_n2.pdf). On NORAC Roads, this would be encompassed by rule 504(b) (I cant seem to find a specific rule in GCOR, so I imagine it might be in those railroads special instructions). Regardless, EO 20 states, in relevant part, for a push pull passenger train (defined as a passenger train with either a cab car or MU on either end)

"(A) On March 4, 1996, at 12:01 a.m., have in effect, publish in its
code of operating rules, and comply with a rule that requires: If a
passenger train operating in the block immediately preceding an
interlocking or controlled point stops for any reason, or its speed is
reduced below 10 m.p.h., the train shall proceed under the reduced
speed set forth in applicable operating rules governing such
circumstances and be prepared to stop before passing the next signal.
In no event shall this reduced speed exceed 40 m.p.h., although lower
speeds are permissible. The train must maintain the prescribed reduced
speed until the next wayside signal is clearly visible and that signal
displays a proceed indication. A copy of the rule will be provided to
the FRA Office of Safety Assurance and Compliance"

EO 20 also stated, and Metrolink was given a waiver from at least part of this section:

"(E) Within 30 days of issuance of the railroad's rule, an
appropriate qualifying appurtenance shall be affixed to each signal
governing the approach to an interlocking or controlled point signal
to serve as a visual reminder to the engineer. Appropriate signage
shall be displayed at the departure end of passenger stations located
in the block immediately preceding interlockings or controlled points."

DIB signs are required even at stations where the next signal is normally clearly visible, as it may not be clearly visible in all conditions. While it is impossible to say that a DIB sign could have prevented the Chattsworth accident, it is beyond belief that Metrolink would seek to avoid the rather low cost of a few small signs that might have prevented a horrible accident. Given how much stock they have placed in rather costly cameras to monitor the performance of engineers, it seems shameful that they would not want to spend a few hundred dollars to help remind those same employees of special rule requirements at certain stations.

It's pretty clear from Sirsonic's post that the DIB rule only applies to locations where the next signal is an absolute.

EO #20( Delay In The Block ) came about after the wreck between MARC 286 and Amtrak 29 at Georgetown Jct in Feb of 1996. The MARC crew had an approach signal at Kensington, made there station stop at Kensington and picked their speed back up to about 50 or so before coming around the curve at Georgetown Jct to see #29 just starting thru the crossover in front of them. The enitre MARC crew died as well as about 15 students. The Amtrak crew made it out alive but never came back to work.

yomanwtf Wrote:
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> EO #20( Delay In The Block ) came about after the
> wreck between MARC 286 and Amtrak 29 at Georgetown
> Jct in Feb of 1996. The MARC crew had an approach
> signal at Kensington, made their station stop at
> Kensington and picked their speed back up to about
> 50 or so before coming around the curve at
> Georgetown Jct to see #29 just starting thru the
> crossover in front of them. The entire MARC crew
> died as well as about 15 students. The Amtrak crew
> made it out alive but never came back to work.


Correct on all counts except the death toll, which was three crew and eight passengers (total of 11). The main cause of death was a fire that broke out because the MARC train's lead cab car struck the fuel tank on the Cap's lead F40PH and ruptured it.

Frankly, I think this is all yet another example of useless over-signage, and is on a par with the "Left turn yield on green" or "Do not block intersection" signs that popped up at various intersections. All, IMO, fall into the "DUH" category. Perhaps the engineers on the board here could tell us just how often they've taken off from a station stop, seen the 'delay in block' sign and said 'Oops! Guess I should throttle back a bit!" In the case of the Metrolink tragedy, It would seem that the engineer would likely have been too busy texting to have seen the sign and heeded it...

It's ok Zephyr, being in LA the sign will be graffittied over almost the moment it goes up, not even the public respects the safety signs.

I can only speak to the rules that apply on UP and BNSF property, but on those two railroads:

1) Delayed in Block is required ANY time the train speed drops below 10 mph within block system limits, even if the next signal is not an absolute signal. (This is above and beyond the requirements of the FRA's emergency order, which only requires DIB when delayed within blocks leading up to absolute signals.) [GCOR Rule 9.9]

2) Within ABS territory (basically, any signal system other than CTC; would include track warrant, current of traffic, etc), all trains must move at restricted speed until the next signal is visible, it displays a proceed indication and the track to that signal is clear [GCOR 9.9A]

3) In CTC (which I'm gonna step out on a limb and say it is the majority of signaled territory), the maximum speed depends on the railroad, subdivision and train. There is no maximum speed on Union Pacific for freight trains and locomotive-pulled passenger trains, but passenger trains operating in push-pull service are restricted to 40 mph while delayed within a block [UP System Special Instructions].

On BNSF, the maximum speed is per the subdivision timetable. On some subdivisions, the maximum speed is 40 mph for ALL trains delayed in a block, and on other subdivisions there is no speed restriction for any train. From what I've heard, the deciding factor is whether or not a subdivision has passenger trains scheduled over it. On those that see passengers, the slower speed prevails and on those without passengers there is no speed component to delayed in block rules. [See each subdivision timetable for BNSF]

In summary, the max speed is restricted speed if you're within non-CTC territory, and it could either be 40 mph or maximum track speed within CTC territory, depending on the railroad, subdivision and type of train. Regardless of the details, any and EVERY time your speed drops below 10 mph, you must be prepared to stop at the next signal until you can see the next signal and it is displaying a proceed indication (and, if in non-CTC territory, you gotta know the track to the signal is clear).

>The DIB rules are never Moot, we've been delayed in the block departing a station with three tenths of a mile to the next signal straight shot...

Every time a passenger train stops at a station, it's delayed in the block, period. In many instances, you can see the next signal immediately, even from where you're sitting waiting for the highball from the conductor, so you can determine right away that you're not longer delayed in the block. From the pix and diagrams I've seen, this is the case for the station where train 111 made its last stop -- the next signal was immediately visible. In the Silver Spring wreck, the next signal wasn't visible from where the train stopped because of inclement weather.

> Frankly, I think this is all yet another example of useless over-signage, and is on a par with the "Left turn yield on green" or "Do not block intersection" signs

Precisely. There are so many "right turn permitted on red" signs around now that if there isn't one, people won't make a right turn on a red, which you've /always/ been able to do in California (unless there is a "no turn on red" sign of course).