Passenger Trains > .

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/21 16:47 by F40PHR231.

Well, what you have here is essentially a commuter rail system with a primary focus on bringing suburban commuters into downtown Sacramento during peak commute times. The trains do their job quite well during those hours, with 4-car trains the norm, and standing room only....results that measure up well compared with competing systems. The ridership is vastly higher than what it would be with a bus-only system that previously existed.

Density developments have been slow to emerge, but 65th St./University has seen some development, and the Rancho Cordova stations show some promise. The Old Town Folsom station is a destination for someone like the reviewer.

Almost no one would think to travel on LRT to some suburban location to seek out a fast food restaurant, so that's an unreasonable expectation, although of course there are plenty of examples where such a trip could be undertaken.

Sacramento did see fit to build a connection to its train station, something that Portland has yet to figure out.

Sacramento clearly has its weaknesses. But the poor rider behavior on lightly-patronized trains is much less evident during peak travel periods, as the hoodlum types are vastly outnumbered by regular, well-behaving outstanding citizens and things are generally calm.

For a true catastrophic LRT system, visit San Jose. That system boasts some suburban stations with virtually no parking, and similar characteristics to Sacramento's low density. The result....few riders and low productivity.

And Los Angeles....some rail transit lines exhibit true urban grit, with sacks of trash left on board by uncaring passengers.

Sacramento is no Chicago, that is correct. But, it's also no Jackson, Mississippi or Columbus, Ohio, with weak or even nonexistent middle class transit usage.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/10 16:05 by reindeerflame.

> Sacramento did see fit to build a connection to
> its train station, something that Portland has yet
> to figure out.
>
>Portland has had a connection to its train station for over a year.

I'd like to address two of your concerns about our craptastic Light Rail system.

First, you point out that riders have to walk a quarter mile to a light to get across the street and there is a fence in the middle of the street. This is for very good reason. People at that station tended to not have any common sense and jaywalked in front of speeding traffic, often causing drivers to jam on their brakes. Just this morning, a guy ran out in front of my car and hopped the fence to get to the other side of the road as I was driving by this station. This could be alleviated by putting a crosswalk and a light in, but it would be an issue to traffic with the other light so close. What you didn't see was that on the other side of the tracks there was a much larger shopping center that has very nice accessibility from the station. Check the link for a satellite view of the station.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Wal-Mart&sll=38.595785,-121.290221&sspn=0.002423,0.006899&ie=UTF8&split=1&rq=1&ev=p&t=h&radius=0.22&hq=Wal-Mart&hnear=&ll=38.594502,-121.291401&spn=0.002423,0.010986&z=17

The second: The gates that go down while the train is in the station. This depends on the station and its proximity to the nearest road crossing. Some stations don't trip the crossing detection. On the Sunrise line, 3 bridges have been installed in the past few years to remove congestion caused by Light Rail. At the intersection near my house, I often had to sit 15 minutes while 3 trains passed by before the bridge was built. Sacramento drivers also have had a tendency to run the crossings and it's being prudent IMO. At another station by my house, there's a "No Right On Red" that illuminates when a train is in the station, but the gates remain up until the train starts moving.

Overall, the system is in very poor condition. There were some major design flaws when the system was designed that haven't been resolved. A few friends have stopped commuting from the 'burbs to downtown on the trains because of the riff-raff during normal commute hours. The security is non-existent and people often ride without purchasing tickets. When they do "crackdowns" all the folks on the train call their friends and warn them to buy tickets today because they'll be checking. 2 days ago, we just had a huge cut back as well, reducing weekend service, eliminating buses and eliminating all trains that started after 9pm on weekdays. It's nice to see an outsider's perspective on the state of our public transit system, thank you for taking the time to share.

Top_bullfrog
Sacramento, CA

I was going to mention San Jose's VTA Light Rail and how much that sucks... but it looks like someone already got to that!

nickrgeorge Wrote:
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> I was going to mention San Jose's VTA Light Rail
> and how much that sucks... but it looks like
> someone already got to that!


Yes, Santa Clara County probably has the most disappointing light rail system in the country. It is a place that could benefit from a well designed light rail line, but what exists mostly misses the mark by a long shot. I still scratch my head when I think about it. I used it for some time, but I was among the fortunate few who actually lived and worked near enough to the system for that to make sense.

Ptolemy Wrote:
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> > Sacramento did see fit to build a connection to
> > its train station, something that Portland has
> yet
> > to figure out.
> >
> >Portland has had a connection to its train
> station for over a year.


Sorry! That a sign of good progress since my last visit.

Reindeerflame made many important points in comparing Sacramento to other cities. I rode the Folsom Line and the Watt I-80 line in February 2008. Sacramento is an early light rail city for the US so it is interesting that the development has not followed it like more recent systems such as Dallas and surprisingly the River Line in New Jersey. In Sacramento, the stop before Historic Folsom, Iron Point I think, had a shopping area. Teenagers and even adults acting unruly is an unfortunate problem with transit, one I would like to see eliminated but it is hard to control. I drive a transit bus in Cincinnati and we have problems here too. I agree with San Jose being an almost unnecessary light rail with it's half hour headways and slow running. Another light rail dud is Buffalo NY. I left Toronto early on a Sunday so I could ride Buffalo again in between Greyhounds only to find there was no Sunday service after 6pm on the light rail there. As far as Sacramento not running all the way to the end of the line short turn cars and cutbacks are found on most streetcar or light rail systems and have been around since horse cars.

Sacramento wasn't too bad but it wasn't on top of my list for favourite light rail lines or light rail lines I considered completely successful. I rode on a weekday and there was considerable patronage and some of the intermediate stops made had a lot of passengers on and off. In general the whole city of Sacramento did not overly impress me and I rode Amtrak to Oakland Square to spend the night. I would guess that you F40PHR231 are from Portland and use MAX as your measuring tool for all other transit cities. I live in Cincinnati with no light rail so I can only measure my results from the twenty or so cities I have rode light rail in the USA, Canada and Mexico. I guess they cannot all be great. I guess I agree Sacramento is still worth a ride but not much more.

Jim

Pictures at Iron Point Station in Folsom (east of Sacramento).

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To me, Sacramento's system was built as a light rail version of BART. I still remember watching them build on the abandoned freeway section along I-80. That always struck me as odd, but I guess they had space so use it. It just went from the suburbs to downtown, nothing more. Transit related development along BART is slowly happening, but it's still a commuter rail system to get you to downtown SF - and maybe SFO, but not really. ;)

And I have to agree about San Jose, lots of potential but in the end makes everyone say "what were you thinking?".

Nathan

I was weaned on the street cars in Cincinnati, Dad was an operator, rode the 32 Elberon, 35 Warsaw and the 31 Crosstown mainly. My present day experiences have been in Chicago with CTA and Metra. In 1999 went to Railfair in Sacramento and stayed out by Mather Field and rode in every day for the first three days for Railfair. Sacramento's Light Rail served its purpose for me, my son came up from the Bay Area and he rode in and back with me one day and he had enough, the rowdy passengers got to him. He moved me downtown for the rest of Railfair. I do not remember a station for the Light Rail by Amtrak in 1999 and thought that was a mistake. In later trips out of Sacramento by Amtrak I still do not remember a station but when I rode through to Emeryville last Christmas I saw the Light Rail Station, when was it built?

HoosierVirg Wrote:
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> I do not remember a
> station for the Light Rail by Amtrak in 1999 and
> thought that was a mistake. In later trips out of
> Sacramento by Amtrak I still do not remember a
> station but when I rode through to Emeryville last
> Christmas I saw the Light Rail Station, when was
> it built?

It was completed in late 2006

Top_bullfrog
Sacramento, CA

I guess everyone expects a low fare, public transit system to attract only the most posh of passengers?

Ever been to NY or Philly or Washington?...all 3 of them have their share of rowdy, ignorant, non fare paying "customers" in addition to their peak passenger count riders who are actually civilized. The rowdy ones that do pay there $2 or whatever the fare is, think they own the system for that measly sum of money.

All I'd say is that Sacramento is joining in the rest of "civilized" society of this country and providing a transportation service for minimal cost to the rider.

You get what you pay for. Seriously, you're bitching about chewing gum on your shoe? You might not want to ever come to the East Coast and ride Pubic Transit then...you may have a heart attack and fall on chewing gum laced sidewalks of real Cities!

nhiwwrr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess everyone expects a low fare, public
> transit system to attract only the most posh of
> passengers?
>
> Ever been to NY or Philly or Washington?...all 3
> of them have their share of rowdy, ignorant, non
> fare paying "customers" in addition to their peak
> passenger count riders who are actually civilized.

Well, by the way that the fare payment system is designed in Philly, it's very difficult to get onto a bus, trolley, or a subway without paying. On Regional Rail, you can sometimes get lucky.

Also, living in Philly, I take SEPTa around all the time, and the rowdy behavior is not as common as you might think outside of weekday late afternoons during the school year.

Good analysis, Reindeerflame, from a commuter who takes light rail [and some city buses] to work. Every system has its weaknesses, and SacRT is no exception.

Raillady
West Sacramento

To lighten up the mood a bit (and although I rode the RT Metro on both opening days in 1987, I haven't been on it lately), back in Oct. 87 I was coming back from Portland on the Starlight, (after visiting the first segment of MAX) when we passed the Sacramento light rail facility northeast of town, this being when #11 still went via Roseville. The man in the window seat had been snoozing, but woke up in time to see the light rail yard. Still not fully awake, he said "Oh, are we in Richmond already?" He had mistaken the RT Metro facility for the BART yard. I told this story to Cameron Beach, who was running the light rail system in those days, and I think he was either flattered or amused that somebody mistook it for BART.

Rode the Suckramento light rail once. Never again!

I rode it back in 2004. It didn't seem all that bad (no rowdies, etc.) Things have undoubtedly gotten worse since....

ChS7-321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Well, by the way that the fare payment system is
> designed in Philly, it's very difficult to get
> onto a bus, trolley, or a subway without paying.
> On Regional Rail, you can sometimes get lucky.
>
> Also, living in Philly, I take SEPTa around all
> the time, and the rowdy behavior is not as common
> as you might think outside of weekday late
> afternoons during the school year.


I'd beg to differe with you on that one. Try riding the El, Subway or Trolley on a Thursday, Friday or Saturday Evening after 9PM. I think that story will change. I ride the system daily, in the evenings, to and from work I see the rowdy behavior that makes the afternoons of the school year look normal.

While you are correct that they fare payment system is a little better, there are plenty who skip payment on the system. If there is not a Transit Cop standing right nearby to hear the cashier call for them, the kids or adults just keep running and board the train and they're lost.

Operators are not permitted by the company to enforce payment of fares after the inital request, if they do,they are putting themsevles and their job in jeopardy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/10 03:04 by nhiwwrr.

Of course, many people have the same view of Amtrak that the original poster has of Sacramento RT.

I'm not defending the system, but let's put a bit of perspective here.

Short turns at Sunrise: Many rail lines do this. Even the beloved Amtrak Capitols, many to most of them short turn near Oakland. The reason for this is the line from Folsom from Sunrise is all single track, and can't handle 15 min headways.

Gum on shoe/bad behavior: My first trip to Grand Central terminal, within three minutes of arriving and wanting to go see the bottom level, I came across a lady squatting down and peeing right on the steps. She kept saying, "Don't mind me, I just gotta go." How's that for uncomfortable? But is GCT a bad place that I would never go again? I've also had to put my camera away in Chicago due to an uncomfortable feeling. In San Diego I've had gum on my shoe.

Picture 9 where there was a barrier in the roadway: What you didn't show was that there was a SIGNALED crosswalk about 4 LRV-car lengths west of the station to cross that street. There is also one about the same distance to the east. Why is that worse that having people just walk across the median? And the mall you talk about has crossings across the UP tracks to get to it. It's at the Cordova Town station.

Gates and operators: Yes, the ABILITY is now built into the cars to control the gates (wasn't that way when the system was built). They use a delayed lowering instead of the call-on. What a waste, and I fully agree with you. Not to make it better, but the delayed dropping of gates is at least better than when the system was built. Every crossing had to have the gates down for 20-30 seconds, WHETHER OF NOT THE TRAIN WAS STOPPING at a station. This was the fail-safe, in case an operator became incapacitated. I remember being on the testing trains on the F-line for this.

E/H ramps: These used to be only for elderly and handicapped, but now strollers can use them when folded up. Big waste of time for all on the train for one person. This was built pre-lowfloor cars, and the short high-levels were a great way for handicapped access. Much better than the mechanical ramps.

Getting dumped before the end-of-the-line: It's the whole short-turn thing. Not a problem, but the headsigns show no indication of this, like they do for Sunrise. The short turn is so the train can run to the yard, as service is starting to be every 30 minutes from 15. Your wait would have been 15 minutes. I thought showing "Downtown" on trains heading to Amtrak or 8 and K was a bad idea, as they are two different destinations. Why not use the headsign in the curtain that says "Amtrak" for trains going there you ask? It's because the station isn't Amtrak as defined by Sac RT, but rather "Sacramento Valley Station." That is the reason, as dumb as it sounds, it's true. Confuse the everyday person to stick with your lesser-known jargon.

The two lines you rode are the most boring. The N-line to Watt/I-80 has varying right of way and street running. The line to the south has brought a LOT of bad behavior to the system. It runs right through the worst area of town, and when it opened the difference was noticeable. I won't ride anymore, and I used to ride all day as a Jr. High student with no feelings of worry.

Again, Sacramento has its problems but is not as bad as you have made it out to be. The behavior is out-of-control and must be dealt with. Some design elements need to be improved. I think it started out bad for you, and you just saw every bad part of the system. Remember, we're not Portland with the budget you have. Sacramento has different priorities (politically), and the system has not developed as it should. But is has come a long way since we were all single track and one, short line.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/10 10:57 by Inthehole.