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Passenger Trains > Budd CZ dome obs. vs. Budd CP 'Park' cars


Date: 09/05/10 14:43
Budd CZ dome obs. vs. Budd CP 'Park' cars
Author: davew833

Interesting (to me anyway) debate on the Canadian board about the differences between the Budd-built 1948 dome/observation cars built for the California Zephyr and the 1955 Canadian Pacific 'Park' cars built for the Canadian. Some posters have stated that there are major structural differences between the cars (frame design/load bearing, etc., and dome location) but it appears to me the designs differ only in minor cosmetic ways (skirting design, marker light size/location, minor window variarions, etc.) I think Budd got the design right in 1948 and stuck with it- I believe CP was the last railroad to order Budd 'short' domes so there wouldn't have been any great need to substantially revise the design. Further, I don't think VIA would have purchased ex-CZ dome/obs 'Silver Sky' with the intent to convert it to a 'Park' car if there had been such major differences (granted, they abandoned the project before completion.) Anyone here with knowledge, insight, or rumor care to chime in?



Date: 09/05/10 15:14
Re: Budd CZ dome obs. vs. Budd CP 'Park' cars
Author: ken15

The last short domes were built by Budd for the all-new re-equipped Burlington DENVER ZEPHYR in 1956.

These included coach domes, a "Chuck-Wagon" mid-train buffet lounge, and a flat-end with diaphragm Parlor-Observation Lounge (according to Trains Magazine at the time, you could purchase a parlor seat all the way from Chicago to Denver).

The "Park" cars on the CP were based on the designs of the CZ Obs as far as I know, but I don't know any particular technical differences.

I look forward to any follow-ups on this forum as I know there are other much more knowledgeable passenger car/train experts that post here.

ken15



Date: 09/05/10 15:22
Re: Budd CZ dome obs. vs. Budd CP 'Park' cars
Author: davew833

Thanks Ken- I couldn't remember if the DZ cars were built before or after the CP Canadian cars.



Date: 09/05/10 16:11
Re: Budd CZ dome obs. vs. Budd CP 'Park' cars
Author: agentatascadero

I wonder if those DZ cars were built before or after the 6 ACF dome coaches built for the UP/Wabash in 1956? AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA



Date: 09/05/10 16:47
Re: Budd CZ dome obs. vs. Budd CP 'Park' cars
Author: czephyr17

There were two short Budd domes built for the Northern Pacific in 1957, one coach and one sleeper, as protection cars for the other 10 domes of each type built in 1954 for the North Coast Limited. Were these the last two domes built?



Date: 09/05/10 17:25
Re: Budd CZ dome obs. vs. Budd CP 'Park' cars
Author: calzephyr48

I believe that CPR ordered the "Park" series cars to follow the CZ dome obs interior floor plan, and they do, at least the unmodified ones. Structurally, they are quite different animals. The 1948 CZ cars were of 'truss' construction, whereas by 1954 Budd had changed over its railcar manufacturing to 'girder' style. Hard to say which is superior, as I believe they both have their strong points. I'd guess that the girder style was less expensive to build, and that was the reason for change.



Date: 09/05/10 21:20
Re: Budd CZ dome obs. vs. Budd CP 'Park' cars
Author: jbaker

When were the dome-obs for the Wabash "Blue Bird" and the C&O "Chessie" built? Getting nitpickie; the CZ's drawing room, or master bedroom, had a shower. The Canadian did not. Handrails leading up to the dome (CZ) were "illuminated lucite". In the bedrooms CZ used alternating long sofa/short sofa w/chair and wash basins were in the annex. The Can. had the two "magical-disapering-chairs"; basin in the room. Who's next!!



Date: 09/05/10 21:55
Re: Budd CZ dome obs. vs. Budd CP 'Park' cars
Author: davew833

According to Weblurker's DomeMAIN website, the "Chessie" cars were delivered in 1948, and the Wabash dome obs., #1601, delivered in 1950. #1601 was definitely one-of-a-kind, with the dome located more toward the front of the car than the others. Also, unlike the CZ dome-obs or the "Park" cars, the windows on the front and rear of the dome of #1601 were the same size. On the others, the rearward facing windows were smaller because the roof was higher in the back.



Date: 09/05/10 22:31
Re: Budd CZ dome obs. vs. Budd CP 'Park' cars
Author: ts1457

> ... I think Budd got
> the design right in 1948 and stuck with it- I
> believe CP was the last railroad to order Budd
> 'short' domes so there wouldn't have been any
> great need to substantially revise the design.

That maroon letterboard and stripe makes them a whole lot more classy.



Date: 09/06/10 10:29
Re: Budd CZ dome obs. vs. Budd CP 'Park' cars
Author: DavidP

agentatascadero Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if those DZ cars were built before or
> after the 6 ACF dome coaches built for the
> UP/Wabash in 1956? AA

I think the UP's final dome order - which included one for City of St. Louis partner Wabash - was actually built by Pullman to ACF's design as ACF had left business by then.

Dave



Date: 09/06/10 11:08
VIA Cars obtained from Amtrak
Author: jp1822

VIA never bought any of the original California Zephyr rail equipment after Amtrak or other railroads may have obtained it right - particular to make them into Park Cars? What about any domes that would be similiar to the Skyline Dome/Lounge cars? I know VIA did buy some equipment of what Amtrak would refer to as Heritage equipment at one time - for parts or potential restoration for service etc. I believe some stainless steel coaches that operated in the US under Amtrak or former passenger rail carriers were restored to service by VIA to augment its service, particular when it decided in the early 1990s that "stainless steel" was going to be its future, rather than the former CN "blue and yellow striped" cars (largely sold to Rocky Mountaineer)



Date: 09/06/10 12:50
Re: VIA Cars obtained from Amtrak
Author: mstokinger

jp1822 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VIA never bought any of the original California
> Zephyr rail equipment after Amtrak or other
> railroads may have obtained it

Except for one. VIA bought dome-obsey Silver Sky from the Rio Grande after the railroad joined Amtrak and discontinued the Rio Grande Zephyr.

Unfortunately, last I heard, VIA cancelled plans to restore the car to a Park-type configuration. If it still exists, the car may be nothing more than a gutted, rusting hulk.

I'm sure others can add further info.

Mike



Date: 09/06/10 13:36
Re: VIA Cars obtained from Amtrak
Author: davew833

VIA bought dome/lng/obs. "Silver Sky" from D&RGW/Ansco in 1987 for conversion into a "Park" car and also dome/dorm/lounge "Silver Shop". They also purchased six other Budd domes out of the US, all of which were stored unrebuilt and resold in late 2006 to various owners in the US. Silver Sky is apparently completely stripped, Silver Shop is fairly complete and original. Not sure about the others.



Date: 09/06/10 15:47
Re: VIA Cars obtained from Amtrak
Author: andersonb109

VIA has an entire fleet of ex American Budd stainless steel cars that weren't good enough for Amtrak. They are used largely on the Windsor-Quebec corridor and are beautiful inside. Far superior to the coaches Amtrak uses in the East with large windows, new seats, overhead enclosed luggage bins and a small galley at the end of the car to facilitate at seat cart service in lieu of a cafe car. And the best part is, in the cold Canadian Winter, with manual opening doors, they don't all freeze shut as is often the case with the Horizon cars.



Date: 09/06/10 16:42
Re: VIA Cars obtained from Amtrak
Author: ken15

To follow-up my earlier comments and others, it looks like the UP domes built by Pullman-Standard were the final "short domes" built.

See the following link of "web lurker's.

http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/UP/

There is really a lot of detailed info in the link above and "web lurker" is always looking for photos, etc.

Also, here are links for one of the Burlington Square (I call flat) end Parlor-Ob-Lounges built for the DENVER ZEPHYR I mentioned in my other post above.

http://trainweb.org/DOMEmain/picCBQ236n.jpg
http://trainweb.org/DOMEmain/picCBQ235e.jpg

ken15



Date: 09/06/10 18:02
Re: VIA Cars obtained from Amtrak
Author: davew833

It's a great, very informative site, however, Weblurker would probably get more submissions if his email address worked.



Date: 09/06/10 20:09
Re: VIA Cars obtained from Amtrak
Author: jp1822

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VIA has an entire fleet of ex American Budd
> stainless steel cars that weren't good enough for
> Amtrak. They are used largely on the
> Windsor-Quebec corridor and are beautiful inside.
> Far superior to the coaches Amtrak uses in the
> East with large windows, new seats, overhead
> enclosed luggage bins and a small galley at the
> end of the car to facilitate at seat cart service
> in lieu of a cafe car. And the best part is, in
> the cold Canadian Winter, with manual opening
> doors, they don't all freeze shut as is often the
> case with the Horizon cars.

As I suspected with the coach cars! Next up - Amtrak's single level Heritage Diner and Dorm/Crew cars that, in my opinion, VIA will buy if they are given the chance. VIA has often said that they are short on what Amtrak considers Heritage Diners.



Date: 09/09/10 03:18
Re: VIA Cars obtained from Amtrak
Author: CalZephyr

VIA acquired another CZ dome in the 80's - ex-WP Silver Thistle. It was nicely restored before going to VIA. It's still in relatively good shape, although vandalized like the rest.



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