Passenger Trains > What is it going to take?

There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about host railroad indifference to Amtrak service under which they are contractually obligated to allow, yet Amtrak does not [publicly] appear to give a flying damn about bad handling by the freight railroads.

Case in point - Amtrak 51 (11) and 50 (12) dealing with the usual bottleneck at Yard Center in Dolton, IL yesterday (Saturday, November 12):

The railroads like to make the excuse that if the scheduled Amtrak train is "out of its time slot" they cannot guarantee it will be given priority handling on their territory. Yet yesterday morning, 51 arrived and left Dyer, IN on schedule, was handed off by CSX to CN with no delay, and arrived at Thornton Junction just a few minutes later - ON SCHEDULE, where it was crossed over to the more-or-less main track through Yard Center. And there the train stopped. For 30 minutes we simply sat, while who knows what kind of bull**** was going on up ahead. Couldn't see anything from the dome but a yard engine shunting back and forth in the intermodal yard. It was as if UP knew there was enough padding in the schedule for an on-time arrival at Union Station. Sure enough, after 30 minutes, we departed and rolled up to the bumper post of track 16 pretty much on time.

Returning in the evening, departure was right on time at 5:45pm and we sailed along with no problem until arriving at the big junction between Metra, NS and UP at 75th Street. I don't know the name of the junction. The UP wouldn't take us because ("oh dear - we have an outlawed crew on a freight and another behind it in your way"). The railroad was having its usual trouble running itself due to bad management, bad dispatching (sorry, DS, you're doing what you're told, but it is bad train handling anyway), inadequate crew management and arrogance. We sat this time for an hour after dark in a lovely part of town, while several freights slowly rolled by on NS tracks to and from the former Wabash line to the west.

In both cases, the Amtrak train was on schedule, "in its slot," and should have been expected. In both cases, the Union Pacific Railroad said in effect: "screw you!"

I for one do not buy the argument from railroad managers that a little 7-car passenger train twice daily will affect their stock prices or cause them to lose money. The freight railroads themselves ripped up any excess capacity they used to have during the years after deregulation, and have nobody to blame but themselves and their Wall Street hack owners for being unable to handle current freight demands.

My point in all of this is why can't/doesn't Amtrak management make legal recourse when the freight railroads deliberately delay trains, inconveniencing thousands of passengers, costing Amtrak untold hundreds of thousands of dollars in crew costs, fuel and delays? What is it going to take to get rail passengers a fair shake and force the likes of CSX, NS, UP, CN and BNSF to play nice with the handful of trains they are paid to host daily?

The letter is on its way to my representative and the STB for what its worth. Right now that appears to be all that can be done.

timecruncher

timecruncher Wrote:
It was as if UP knew
> there was enough padding in the schedule for an
> on-time arrival at Union Station. Sure enough,
> after 30 minutes, we departed and rolled up to the
> bumper post of track 16 pretty much on time.
>


The signal north of Yard Center, Dolton, is not controlled by the UP. It is controlled by the IHB operator at Dolton, and if the IHB has cross traffic it goes before north south traffic on the UP.

What is it going to take? A cultural change in this country where those in charge take rail passenger service seriously, and the providing of new rail service and keeping it running is as ordinary as paving a street.

In my state UP has received a major tax break to create a new yard west of El Paso while we are told we cannot afford Amtrak and Railrunner.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/11 14:43 by Ptolemy.

do amtrak trains ever get delayed by other amtrak trains on the n.e. corridor? just curious.........

66

Timecruncher:

I totally agree with you regarding the freight railroads and their "time slots". I've always been of the opinion that this is just an excuse to put the blame on Amtrak, and cover up the lousy dispatching (deliberate or otherwise) by freight railroads.

The reason I feel this way is because "time slots" seems to imply that freight trains are actually "scheduled"; and the freight railroads have steadfastly refused over the years to run a "scheduled railroad".

Like you, I used to get frustrated with Amtrak management because they seem to tolerate anything the Freight railroads dish out; but then I came to believe that Amtrak actually has "two managements"--guys like Boardman who actually run Amtrak, and the anti-Amtrak politician's who supply Amtrak with funding (not to mention the effect of campaign contributions from Frt. railroads).

For example: it's not too hard to envision a Senator or Rep.from any State, calling up Amtrak, and "advising" them to forget about a service complaint against the Union Pacific say, especially if this guy received a campaign contribution from the UP; or if the UP spends a lot of money in his State.

To put it bluntly, my feeling is that Amtrak management is "muzzled" (told to shut up) by politicians defending the interest of the freight railroads; so, the freight railroads spin this "missed time slot" myth to cover up what really goes on. This is why I cut Amtrak management more slack these days.

Joe

I think we need a system of rail traffic control, similar to the air traffic control run by the FAA. Let the FRA manage and control the traffic on the nation's mainline rails. It's got to be better than what is happening now.
Bill Pyper
Salem, OR

The UP line between Thornton Junction and 80th Street (the BRC / Metra) junction is regularly mismanaged by the UP. The UP regularly dispatches trains into this area that have no where to go (even though the UP knows this in advance), thus gumming up the railroad. Often times, trains are allowed to die side by side - without regard to Amtrak or other freight trains causing a huge mess for UP - CSX - Amtrak and several other railroads that use this route.

The IHB at Dolton does not purposely delay Amtrak 99 times out of 100. Often it appears that a train is stopped because a freight is going across Dolton, but it is more likely that there is no route ahead for Amtrak...

The sooner the grand crossing CREATE project is completed, the sooner Amtrak can be moved off this line, which is at best a poor route for Amtrak.

dispr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The sooner the grand crossing CREATE project is
> completed, the sooner Amtrak can be moved off this
> line, which is at best a poor route for Amtrak.

How is Grand Crossing going to facilitate the rerouting of the Cardinal?

Only one hour delay? Ha! Try getting a passenger train over NS between Chicago and Cleveland-Pittsburgh. Yesterday 29 departed Toledo 23 minutes late, and limped into Chicago 3 hours late. 49 was right behind them. 100% of the delay was dead NS trains, following NS trains, and a lovely 55 mile section of single track operation from LaPorte to Engelwood due to dead trains clogging main 1. If Amtrak were gone tomorrow, the freight RR's would not notice any difference in their own train handling due to decades of running skeletal crews and deferred capital investment. I feel for the DS, you can hear the distress in their voice, he can't work wonders with woefully inadequate and overtaxed infrastructure suffering from decades of no expansion! At least the western roads seem to add capacity where needed.

About "time slots"? Check and see how many times 48/30 depart Chicago on time, and are hours late by the time they get to Cleveland. 48 does a bit better, but 30 gets hammered daily. NS/CSX do not run scheduled operations, they have general times a certain train may depart a terminal.

And yes, the only ones who seem to care are the poor passengers who made the mistake of wanting to enjoy a train ride with the kids or friends to go shopping or visit a museum in Chicago. Never again! They don't care about the who/why the train was late, they just know they missed a interview, flight at O'Hare, lunch reservation or any number of events. Next time they will drive or take Megabus. Amtrak does not care, the host RR's and politicians most certainly don't care.

wjpyper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we need a system of rail traffic control,
> similar to the air traffic control run by the FAA.
> Let the FRA manage and control the traffic on the
> nation's mainline rails. It's got to be better
> than what is happening now.
> Bill Pyper
> Salem, OR

Yea, that is just what we need, more government employees!

As an aside, last summer I was flying into O'Hare, on United. I was able to listen to United's live from the cockpit product, which allows you to hear the radio traffic between ATC and the airplanes. As we where getting close to Chicago, the controller put us into a holding pattern over Peoria, then gave a UPS train clearance towards O'Hare from the same holding point. We ended up flying in circles over Peoria for about half an hour. If a railroad dispatcher did that, there would be threads on TO, and people would be calling for the STB to come down on the railroads. However there is none of that, because an air traffic controller is permitted to run his area of responsibility on his own, keeping it fluid regardless if the airplanes are hauling people or packages.

carry a scanner, you'll be amazed at what the on-board crew will give as the delay reason, then call 'em on it!

Several Amtrak employees have been called out by Amtrak management for telling it like it is, making PA announcements about the exact cause of delays and telling passengers it was due to "the host RR failing to comply with its contractual and legal obligations to run your train on-time", or a few frank but professional comments of a similar nature. Amtrak wants to have a cozy relationship with the host RR's, since Amtrak really does not care about anything west of Harrisburg. IMHO only.

>timecruncher Wrote:
>
> My point in all of this is why can't/doesn't
> Amtrak management make legal recourse when the
> freight railroads deliberately delay trains,
> inconveniencing thousands of passengers, costing
> Amtrak untold hundreds of thousands of dollars in
> crew costs, fuel and delays? What is it going to
> take to get rail passengers a fair shake and force
> the likes of CSX, NS, UP, CN and BNSF to play nice
> with the handful of trains they are paid to host
> daily?

> timecruncher

floridajoe2001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> To put it bluntly, my feeling is that Amtrak
> management is "muzzled" (told to shut up) by
> politicians defending the interest of the freight
> railroads; so, the freight railroads spin this
> "missed time slot" myth to cover up what really
> goes on. This is why I cut Amtrak management
> more slack these days.
>
> Joe

I usually agree with Floridajoe, but not this time. I tired of cutting Amanagement slack. To me it's more like rolling over and playing dead. They're supposed to give the passenger his money's worth and on-time performance is a big part of that. Amtrak's own surveys have told us that the most important thing that keeps passengers coming back is the ability get their destinations at the time they were promised.

Amtrak needs to have some cajones and I'm all for a legal donnybrook with the freights over this. Let's not forget that from every perspective Amtrak is in the right and the freights are in the wrong when it comes to giving freight trains priority over passenger trains. Amtrak has federal law, contractual law and just plain morality on it's side and needs to act like it knows it. It might be a messy battle that winds up in the Supreme Court but Amtrak would win and, believe me, that public will be on it's side.

Come on Amtrak, stick up for yourself and your passengers.

John Webb
Trinidad, CA

Grand Crossing is after Englewood. Which is happening now. $$ for Grand Crossing?? We will have to wait and see. IC and CARDINAL/ HOOSIER will all gain greatly if/when Grand Crossing becomes reality.

cutboy2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grand Crossing is after Englewood. Which is
> happening now. $$ for Grand Crossing?? We will
> have to wait and see. IC and CARDINAL/ HOOSIER
> will all gain greatly if/when Grand Crossing
> becomes reality.

Thanks, I got the two confused. But how will the Cardinal be rerouted to use Grand Crossing? Will it get on the old IC mainline at some point south?

floridajoe2001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...guys like Boardman who actually run Amtrak...

Surely you jest.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/11 00:21 by GenePoon.

CSX Dispatcher:

Sorry you had to endure a flight on United! Anyway, I've experienced the same at the same airport, and the situation was understandable because there was an MD-11 that had been on slow approach (sounds like a signal indication, doesn't it?) and was flying "heavy" which I believe means it was full of fuel and people and had been held to 10,000 feet for several hundred miles. We were told to go around and let that plane land. In your situation, the UPS flight may have been held ahead of you.

At least in the air, while different aircraft have different top speed characteristics, pretty much everything is going the same speed when approaching an airport. On the rails, that unit coal train is going maybe 40 while the Amtrakker behind it is allowed 79.

And that is the challenge you face every day, I am sure. I did not intend my post to be a condemnation of dispatchers anyway. Bad handling of a passenger train may be called for far above the dispatcher desk, and if the trainmaster is going to chew you out for delaying one of his or her freight trains, why get in trouble for letting the passenger train go ahead.

There are many dynamics here, and my point - "What is it going to take" - is that the situation seems to be getting worse and nothing appears to be happening from the Amtrak side or from the STB side to indicate that anyone is paying attention.

timecruncher

Yes, please!!! Give us more government employees making $175,000 a year to take care of some piddly problem. I am so pleased that there are non railroad folks that know exactly what is going on up ahead when they can't even see the engine from their seat. Don't like the delay - take a bus. Hate the buses, then fly. Afraid of flying - drive your car. We still have a few choices here in America and aren't you glad we still do. It could be worse. Uh Oh, ....... it's getting that way.

Yeah, About the IHB, I wonder what obligation it has to expedite Amtrak trains, as it did not have any passenger trains May 1,1971? I would guess it's not as connected to Amtrak as the other big class 1's. I get the impression from rr scanner talk, that some of the yardmasters at IHB don't seem to even have a clue as to Amtrak operations.

To Gene Poon:

From your post above, I take it you don't believe that "guys like Boardman run Amtrak".

In that case, I'm curious to hear who you think actually does manage Amtrak.

Joe