Passenger Trains > .

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/21 16:38 by F40PHR231.

They guy in the last picture is reading a Korean newspaper. He must be a North Korean Terrorist!!!!
Make sure you report him!

They're trying to keep the rails safe, and you're whining about the policy. Maybe you can get them to detain you so that you can sue them too. $$$$

"See-something-say-something" advisories like this one do more to arouse hysteria than they accomplish for security. Sure, a passer-by might call in an unattended package and avert a tragedy, but most of the time the general public doesn't have a clue as to who belongs and who doesn't.

F40PHR231 Wrote:
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> It's not a policy, it's a guideline that only
> serves to target and harass photographers. It
> doesn't say photography is outlawed.


You believe that a group of people sat down and said, "Let's do something to really anger the photographers out there"?? That's paranoia. I'm sure they have better things to do.

coaststarlight99 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> F40PHR231 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > It's not a policy, it's a guideline that only
> > serves to target and harass photographers. It
> > doesn't say photography is outlawed.
>
>
> You believe that a group of people sat down and
> said, "Let's do something to really anger the
> photographers out there"?? That's paranoia. I'm
> sure they have better things to do.

I don't think they came up with this deliberately. They just cast too wide a net, and don't consider the Constitutional consequences.

coaststarlight99 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They're trying to keep the rails safe, and you're
> whining about the policy. Maybe you can get them
> to detain you so that you can sue them too. $$$$

If I recall correctly, Chris was detained and hassled
while LEGALLY shooting transit in Baltimore and made
a pretty profit of $000,000.00.

Maybe you are thinking of another well known photo-
grapher and friend who were detained in NY and did
sue and won some $$$$$. Normally I'm against petty
suits and the typically outrageous amounts that are
deemed fair yet in this case I was all for it as I
certainly do not want - in a free society, no less -
to go to jail or be detained while I'm simply taking
photographs from public property!

Chris is right - the way the excerpt (What Should I
Consider Suspicious?" is written, it should have
either included cell phone users and those with
backpacks OR, made an exception for railfans / photo-
graphers who shoot for as a hobby.

/Mitch

Mgoldman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If I recall correctly, Chris was detained and
> hassled
> while LEGALLY shooting transit in Baltimore and
> made
> a pretty profit of $000,000.00.

Well, perhaps he can clarify that then. He did go to the ACLU to file suit against the transit agency. When you sue, you sue for money. Nobody sues for "$0.00".

F40PHR231 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't believe that. Where did I imply that?
> You're getting the wrong idea.

From where you stated this:

" it's a guideline that only serves to target and harass photographers"

That implies that they came up with the policy for the sole purpose of targeting and harassing photographers.

When you look at all the Safety and Security bullet points, it is obvious the DRPA and PATCO simply copied and pasted from some generic document without even reading the content. They talk about locomotive fuel capacities, switching at chemical plants, bulk transfer facilities, etc., none of which apply to PATCO or PATCO passengers. I think the issue is the laziness and cluelessness of the DRPA and PATCO in posting the security info without regard to what is says. Indeed, PATCO in practice has always been reasonably photo-friendly.

If only the terrorists would wear uniforms and make it a more gentlemanly conflict.

Posted from iPhone

The Delaware River Ports Authority, parent of PATCO, is under enormous pressure from Governor Christie to become less bloated. He's vetoed their minutes, and returned their budgets. It's been covered extensively in the Inquirer.

I have no doubt the PATCO police are trying to boost their numbers with "security stops" for "potential terrorist incidents on mass transit." It boosts the numbers you can report to DHS, and increases the special grants you get back. The more federal crack you get from DHS, the more toys you can buy, people you can keep, etc. In spite of Christie.

coaststarlight99 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They're trying to keep the rails safe, and you're
> whining about the policy. Maybe you can get them
> to detain you so that you can sue them too. $$$$

Folks who think like this are a huge problem. They HAVE given up their rights already. We all NEED NOT give up our rights in the name of so called safety and security. If it takes lawsuits to retain the rights given to us under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, then so be it. It is past time that we take our country back from those that have hijacked it over the past decade.

With this, its a dang good thing to know what your rights are so you can educate these bums. I had to do that a few years ago in Toledo, Ohio to a couple of rookies.

Biggest recommendation-get the Photographers rights from Bert Krages.

salcolsan Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
>
> Folks who think like this are a huge problem.
> They HAVE given up their rights already. We all
> NEED NOT give up our rights in the name of so
> called safety and security. If it takes lawsuits
> to retain the rights given to us under the
> Constitution and the Bill of Rights, then so be
> it. It is past time that we take our country back
> from those that have hijacked it over the past
> decade.

Let's see, I was out railfanning over the last few weeks while on vacation. I stayed trackside all day and took notes of trains and photos. I had a great time, met with other railfans and enjoyed our hobby. I was stopped once by a local police officer who asked what I was doing. I was polite and explained this was my hobby. I didn't make an ass of myself and scream about my rights or pull out a copy of the Photographer's Bill of Rights. He was doing his job, I answered his concerns and he told me to have a great day.

I guess I must be a "huge problem" because I haven't given up any rights and I am not writing this from some secret political prison. Having served in the military in countries where people REALLY don't have rights, I think people that get on TO.com and say we need to "take our country back" are a huge problem!

RFandPFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Let's see, I was out railfanning over the last few
> weeks while on vacation. I stayed trackside all
> day and took notes of trains and photos. I had a
> great time, met with other railfans and enjoyed
> our hobby. I was stopped once by a local police
> officer who asked what I was doing. I was polite
> and explained this was my hobby. I didn't make an
> ass of myself and scream about my rights or pull
> out a copy of the Photographer's Bill of Rights.
> He was doing his job, I answered his concerns and
> he told me to have a great day.
>
> I think people that get
> on TO.com and say we need to "take our country
> back" are a huge problem!

Imagine instead you met with some of the security
others had and were hassled to know end. Imagine
being held up, like Chris was, during a vacation
and missing your connection. Or being asked to
delete all your images on your card. Or simply
being asked to leave a location after driving
several hours to get there despite the legality
of your intentions.

I know some folks ask for trouble but many do
not. Not sure where you spend most of your time
trackside but a visit to Philly, or NYC might
alter your perception.

/Mitch

RFandPFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Let's see, I was out railfanning over the last few
> weeks while on vacation. I stayed trackside all
> day and took notes of trains and photos. I had a
> great time, met with other railfans and enjoyed
> our hobby. I was stopped once by a local police
> officer who asked what I was doing. I was polite
> and explained this was my hobby. I didn't make an
> ass of myself and scream about my rights or pull
> out a copy of the Photographer's Bill of Rights.
> He was doing his job, I answered his concerns and
> he told me to have a great day.
>
> I guess I must be a "huge problem" because I
> haven't given up any rights and I am not writing
> this from some secret political prison. Having
> served in the military in countries where people
> REALLY don't have rights, I think people that get
> on TO.com and say we need to "take our country
> back" are a huge problem!

Bravo!! The majority of the encounters probably go as you describe. It's the whiners who want to have their cake and eat it too, and then blab to the world how they were "violated" while taking pictures of a darn train (followed by posting videos on YouTube of this horrible, terrible violation that they were "forced" to endure).

I have only been contacted once by the police. I did exactly the same as you did, I showed my ID when he asked for it, I explained what I was doing and showed him some of my pictures, and he shook my hand and took off. He said that he wished he had the time to do what I was doing because it looked like fun. I suppose I could have said, "You don't have the right to look at my ID" and I could have stretched it out for an hour. But that would be ridiculous.

coaststarlight99 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bravo!! The majority of the encounters probably go
> as you describe.

I often wonder why I ever participate in some of these
threads when valid points are disregarded and it's
only those which are in favor of the responder are
considered valid.

I've never been hassled nor arrested but on more then
one occasion I was forbidden from shooting on public
property (and usually on trips requiring a bit of
time in travel and cash for gas) all despite being
not only legal but identical images already in circu-
lation on the 'Net and in print.

I've also been told on more then one occasion to
erase images on my compact flash card or at minimum
to hand the camera over to allow the officer access
to ALL images on the card.

I'm always open and friendly to all who approach me
but if you are not careful, what freedom you have
now could easily slip away unless it's defended.

Back to the original intent of Chris's post - he
simply stated that Photographers (vrs cell phone
users and students with back packs) have been
erroneously singled out likely resulting in un-
necessary hassling by the authorities - most of
which are completely uninformed of the law or
patience to adhere to it.

"Duh - yeah, y'know, that whole 9-11 thing - ever
since then, the government made it illegal to take
photographs of any and all transportation infra=
structure. Sorry, I can't even let you stand here."

/Mitch

Mitch G. said:

I've also been told on more then one occasion to
erase images on my compact flash card or at minimum
to hand the camera over to allow the officer access
to ALL images on the card.

Did you do so?

I would hope not!

Ted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/12 15:45 by ACR_Ted.

Mgoldman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> coaststarlight99 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Bravo!! The majority of the encounters probably
> go
> > as you describe.
>
> I often wonder why I ever participate in some of
> these
> threads when valid points are disregarded and it's
>
> only those which are in favor of the responder are
>
> considered valid.

(snip)

I've often thought about a FAQ for TrainOrders where some frequently argued issues (reopening Tennessee Pass, rent a cops telling people they can't take pictures of trains, Amtrak employees as government employees, any TSA-related topic, etc) can be exiled.

People have their own facts, and no amount of arguing will change them.