Passenger Trains > CN: "no capacity" on Chicago-Joliet route

The Chicago Tribune has a story of regional elected officials requesting that CN allow additional service on Metra's Heritage Corridor, which uses CN's Chicago-Joliet main. Currently the route has only 3 round trips per day, and the claim (also made by Metra) is that demand warrants more service.

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"Patrick Waldron, spokesman for CN, said the train line cannot handle additional passenger trains without significant capacity and infrastructure improvements.

"We would need government funding for infrastructure improvements in order to allow for additional passenger trains on the line," Waldron said.

He said the corridor is already very heavily used by commuter trains, Amtrak passenger trains and freight trains."

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This seems very suspect, but maybe I don't know. Here is why I am suspicious: the route is double track (right?) and the "heavy" traffic is three Metra roundtrips, 6 Amtrak roundtrips, and as far as I have heard, very little freight. In fact, is there any freight from Joliet to the outskirts of Chicago asides from a local?

I once was outside in Bridgeport (Chicago) next to the main for a solid 4-5 hours, not intentionally trainwatching. In that entire span, one Amtrak train went by, and the eastbound daily Iowa freight went through, which is only on a bit of the line within Chicago proper.

Can anyone with knowledge comment on this? Is it a plow for federal funds?

Edit: for comparison, what about CP's double track C&M sub? From Techny to Rondout, it has hourly off-peak Metra weekday service, plus (I think) 8 Amtrak route trips, and something like 5-10 freights each way per day.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/12 20:49 by inRVA.

Dude, if count my fingers correctly here..wait, I ran out..but still....I got something like 18 trains a day...that's a heck of a lot of trains...surprised CN can anything done. Infrastructure maybe means more crossovers.

inRVA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Chicago Tribune has a story of regional
> elected officials requesting that CN allow
> additional service on Metra's Heritage Corridor,
> which uses CN's Chicago-Joliet main. Currently the
> route has only 3 round trips per day, and the
> claim (also made by Metra) is that demand warrants
> more service.
>
> -----
>
> "Patrick Waldron, spokesman for CN, said the train
> line cannot handle additional passenger trains
> without significant capacity and infrastructure
> improvements.
>
> "We would need government funding for
> infrastructure improvements in order to allow for
> additional passenger trains on the line," Waldron
> said.
>
> He said the corridor is already very heavily used
> by commuter trains, Amtrak passenger trains and
> freight trains."
>
> -----
>
> This seems very suspect, but maybe I don't know.
> Here is why I am suspicious: the route is double
> track (right?) and the "heavy" traffic is three
> Metra roundtrips, 6 Amtrak roundtrips, and as far
> as I have heard, very little freight. In fact, is
> there any freight from Joliet to the outskirts of
> Chicago asides from a local?
>
> I once was outside in Bridgeport (Chicago) next to
> the main for a solid 4-5 hours, not intentionally
> trainwatching. In that entire span, one Amtrak
> train went by, and the eastbound daily Iowa
> freight went through, which is only on a bit of
> the line within Chicago proper.
>
> Can anyone with knowledge comment on this? Is it a
> plow for federal funds?

Why on Earth do you think an "Iowa Freight" would be on the ex GM&O line between Joliet and Chicago?

There is a lot of freight business between Chicago and Joliet. (refineries) That's why the ICG kept that trackage when they sold the old Alton Route off. It is not reasonable to expect the railroad to just hand over its right of way to passenger trains.

inRVA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Chicago Tribune has a story of regional
> elected officials requesting that CN allow
> additional service on Metra's Heritage Corridor,
> which uses CN's Chicago-Joliet main. Currently the
> route has only 3 round trips per day, and the
> claim (also made by Metra) is that demand warrants
> more service.
>
> -----
>
> "Patrick Waldron, spokesman for CN, said the train
> line cannot handle additional passenger trains
> without significant capacity and infrastructure
> improvements.
>
> "We would need government funding for
> infrastructure improvements in order to allow for
> additional passenger trains on the line," Waldron
> said.
>
> He said the corridor is already very heavily used
> by commuter trains, Amtrak passenger trains and
> freight trains."
>
> -----
>
> This seems very suspect, but maybe I don't know.
> Here is why I am suspicious: the route is double
> track (right?) and the "heavy" traffic is three
> Metra roundtrips, 6 Amtrak roundtrips, and as far
> as I have heard, very little freight. In fact, is
> there any freight from Joliet to the outskirts of
> Chicago asides from a local?
>
> I once was outside in Bridgeport (Chicago) next to
> the main for a solid 4-5 hours, not intentionally
> trainwatching. In that entire span, one Amtrak
> train went by, and the eastbound daily Iowa
> freight went through, which is only on a bit of
> the traffic in Chicago.
>
> Can anyone with knowledge comment on this? Is it a
> plow for federal funds?

CN ownership of the north end of the former Alton is a strange legacy of the reconfiguration of the rail industry over the past several decades. The Alton line was a single entity between Chicago and St. Louis under B&O ownership, GM&O ownership and ICG ownership into the Amtrak era. However, when in the '80's ICG began selling off just about everything but it's Great Lakes to Gulf spine, it chose to retain Chicago - Joliet while selling the rest of the Alton to regional Chicago, Missouri and Western. I think the reason was to keep rights to deliver unit trains to a power plant near Joliet. After CM&W's failure, SP bought the assets, which then passed to UP when they bought SP. CN of course bought "new" IC, successor to ICG, and thus owns this piece of the Lincoln corridor, which may have more value to them now that they also own the former EJ&E. Perhaps the Illinois DOT's recommendation to shift Amtrak over to the former RI north of Joliet might free capacity to allow Metra expansion.

Dave

greyhounds Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Why on Earth do you think an "Iowa Freight" would
> be on the ex GM&O line between Joliet and
> Chicago?

Why do you take such an aggressive tone, particularly when I'm pretty sure you failed to correct anything? "An Iowa freight", M337/338, accesses the route near 35th st./I55 (I think after working Hawthorne Yard) to go up to 16th st. and get on the St. Charles Air Line and connect with the ex-IC to Markham Yard and beyond. Is there another way it can get there?

As I said, it only uses a small portion of the total route...

DavidP Wrote:

CN of course bought "new" IC, successor to
> ICG, and thus owns this piece of the Lincoln
> corridor, which may have more value to them now
> that they also own the former EJ&E. Perhaps the
> Illinois DOT's recommendation to shift Amtrak over
> to the former RI north of Joliet might free
> capacity to allow Metra expansion.
>
> Dave

Is there any through traffic added because of the EJ&E acquisition?

While not familiar with this particular line, it is quite clear that a winning strategy for freight railroads is to demand free upgrades to infrastructure as a condition of adding passenger trains - whether needed or not.

For the UP to make, and win, a case that ANY expenditures are necessary to allow the Sunset Limited to run 1 round trip a day on the 4 days that it is not currently running is absolutely ludicrous.

Is CN-IC already committed to handling the additional Amtrak Chicago-St. Louis trains coming from the HSR project, or are they going to have to have their own project before the additional round-trips (for a total of eight?) that UP is allowing can run on its line?

Metra has been fighting this battle for at least two decades and long before CN was involved. And does
anyone really expect CN to roll over after all of the government-imposed conditions on the EJ&E merger?

This is not as clear cut as many of you seem to think. Let's look at some of the issues raised in this thread:

inRVA asked:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can anyone with knowledge comment on this? Is it a plow for federal funds?

Freight railroads are private sector companies. Seems reasonable that they should asked the government
to fund infrastructure improvements to support an increase in Amtrak and Metra train frequencies


inRVA continued:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Edit: for comparison, what about CP's double track C&M sub? From Techny to Rondout, it has hourly
> off-peak Metra weekday service, plus (I think) 8 Amtrak route trips, and something like 5-10
> freights each way per day.


For a few reasons, this CP route is not a good comparison. Most importantly, this route does not have the number
of at-grade crossings with other railroads that the CN Joliet line has. The Joliet line has major conflict
points at:
1. CSX and NS mains at Brighton Park
2. BNSF at Corwith - both legs of wye cross the CN Joliet line
3. BRC main at Nerska (I-55 and Cicero Avenue)
4. IHB main at Argo/CP Canal
5. Metra's former Rock Island main at Joliet


Costanza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dude, if count my fingers correctly here..wait, I ran out..but still....I got something like 18
> trains a day...that's a heck of a lot of trains...surprised CN can anything done.
> Infrastructure maybe means more crossovers.

18 trains is not that many when compared to the train volumes on most other Metra lines. However, the biggest
problems are with the crossings noted above, especially as train speeds on the crossing lines are not that fast.
These will require flyovers to alleviate the congestion.

The IHB crossing at CP Canal is already in the Phase I planning stage in a study funded by IDOT as part of the
CREATE program: http://createprogram.org/factsheets/P6.pdf

Another flyover is planned at Brighton Park: http://createprogram.org/factsheets/P5.pdf

Good map of current status of CREATE projects at: http://createprogram.org/linked_files/status_map.pdf


inRVA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "An Iowa freight", M337/338, accesses the route near 35th st./I55 (I think after working Hawthorne Yard)
> to go up to 16th st.and get on the St. Charles Air Line and connect with the ex-IC to Markham Yard and beyond.
> Is there another way it can get there?

These trains will eventually be routed via a new connection at Munger, IL on the former EJ&E. However, last I
heard, they would be routed to Glenn Yard on the Joliet line.


inRVA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Is there any through traffic added because of the EJ&E acquisition?

Glenn Yard adjacent to I-55 east of Harlem has taken on a larger role since the the acquistion.


ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is CN-IC already committed to handling the additional Amtrak Chicago-St. Louis trains coming
> from the HSR project, or are they going to have to have their own project before the additional
> round-trips (for a total of eight?) that UP is allowing can run on its line?

This is probably the major reason that IDOT's preferred alternate between Chicago and Joliet is Metra's
Rock Island District.

Kevink brings up a lot of good points. I've had my eye on CN here in Chicago for a lot of routes, and my concern has been growing. I can anecdotally point to some other CN passenger rail negotiation issues.

Metra's North Central Service (NCS):
(Chicago CUS to O'Hare to Antioch)
Metra paid a lot of money in the 90s to double and sometimes triple track CN's Wisconsin Central route. Ridership has been growing on this route and its going to keep growing. In 5 years or less this route will provide a faster (as little as 28 minutes compared to the 'L's 45+) and cheaper ($4.75 compared to the 'L's $5) alternative to get to/from O'Hare to downtown (CUS) (the people mover is also being extended to provide a complete rail to rail connection from the Airport to Metra NCS).

Despite these upgrades (Metra putting money where their mouth is) Metra has been unable to negotiate for more trains on the route. Metra has also been unable to negotiate for weekend service. CN is stonewalling them. This is despite Metra running only 22 trains a day (this is NOTHING compared to Metra's UP lines, Milwaukee District lines, BNSF, etc).

Amtrak's Black Hawk route:
(Chicago CUS to Rockford to Galena to Dubuque)
IDOT has $60 million ready to go out for station construction. $20 million has been dedicated from additional sources for rail car purchases for cars being built just a few miles from the line. $10 million has been given by other agencies or states for construction of stations. I believe we're approaching $90 million of investment by various agencies. Construction of the route was set to begin this year.

That isn't happening because IDOT is struggling to negotiate with CN for 2, fast, roundtrip daily trains despite some of the Illinois Central being in much better shape now and IDOT willing to drop millions more of their money on improvements. While only single tracked, I believe CN only runs 1-2 freights daily, if that. I'm pretty sure 4 trains a day with significant investment (for sidings and other improvements) by IL and IA should be sufficient based on what I see on other routes.

In short, I don't have much confidence in CN when it comes to passenger rail improvements. Whether it is Metra, Amtrak, IDOT or whomever, it seems like they've been making negotiations much harder compared to UP, BNSF, etc. I hope I'm wrong and these patterns are just minor setbacks.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/12 04:34 by DR04.

Has the lawsuit by Amtrak against CN over "intentional delays" of Amtrak trains been resolved? Wasn't Amtrak seeking to take over the CN line if the delays weren't permanently resolved?

If I headed CN, that would certainly be on my mind if Amtrak etc was seeking to add a lot more trains / congestion on another route.

I agree, thanks Kevink for several significant points. I was thinking the several at-grade rail crossings might be an issue, which you confirmed.

That said, DR04's mention of NCS service - public investment vs. what is being allowed by CN - is significant.

As for the Blackhawk route:

DR04 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> While only single tracked, I believe CN only runs
> 1-2 freights daily, if that.

From the local yahoo list I understand the traffic is a once-a-day massive freight each way (M337/M338) plus ethanol and possibly grain extras, said to maybe be an additional train each a way a day, and a local. With enough sidings it is hard to imagine why this would make Amtrak service difficult, but I also hear CN has recently taken out some sidings (though maybe they were shorter-length, steam era sidings.)

I hope Kevin or somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that CTC was added to this stretch some time after the Metra service went to three round trips.

That should be a capacity improvement right there.

Local service along this route can be somewhat time-consuming, particularly between Summit and Lemont.

But seriously, if they're talking only one more rush-hour train in each direction, I doubt that it would constrict CN all that much when it comes to curfew times--maybe a half-hour on either end.

How do they think that the three trains will be able to handle the added demand from a Romeoville station stop? (Or are they stonewalling that, too?). That stop, by the way, is in a place where there used to be strings of tank cars placed in a siding for the Union Oil refinery across the street. Haven't seen those cars in years...that's freight business that hasn't increased.

Carl Shaver
Lombard, IL

A new connection was built at Argo/Canal of the BOCT/IHB for UP trains to run from Proviso to the Joliet Intermodal Terminal. Provisions were made for Eastbound trains from Joliet to connections via the IHB. The line hosts at least 2 large locals that hold a main while they switch the many industries along the line. There was a Markham to Glen transfer the ran primarily to handle haz mats and dimensional loads that couldn't go under McCormick Place. I believe that there is a train off the old WC to Glen Yard that comes off the IHB from the north.

Cross traffic is a major concern, the IHB/BOCT crossing sees about 80 moves a day in addition to the CN/Metra/Amtrak traffic.

Remember adding two trains is no big deal, its adding two trains on a schedule that you don't want delayed that causes the problems.

I don't see how CN could have any scheduling problem at all with a couple of extra passenger services. After all, they are the "Precision Railroad" now.


Ray

p.s. The "precision" of one daily CN freight I try to catch every now and then seems to vary by up to three hours from one day to the next.

p.p.s. The first time I heard CN sing this particular tune was in the 1970s, when they claimed (in a newspaper article about improving Montreal-Toronto passenger services) that their Montreal-Toronto main line was "at capacity." In that period, I could see that line from my office, and having spent some time in Switzerland where I saw how the SBB managed dense traffic on the Gotthard line with typically five to ten minute headways, it was clear that CN's position was self-serving and held little merit.

If CN say there is no capacity, what is the big deal? It is their railroad. Does Mtra want something on the cheap?

Costanza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dude, if count my fingers correctly here..wait, I
> ran out..but still....I got something like 18
> trains a day...that's a heck of a lot of
> trains...surprised CN can anything done.
> Infrastructure maybe means more crossovers.

Dude, on a double-track line, 18 trains is 9 each way. One every two hours...or one every three if you include nightime. In what railroading world is this called "at capacity"?

CN has a point. The last time I checked, much of the trackage between Joliet and 21st St was jointed rail and no doubt some signalling improvements might be needed given the number of busy crossings that are traversed by the Metra trains. Still, Glenn Yard is in the process of being downgraded to local service now that Kirk and East Joliet yards are the primary classification points. So CN freight traffic on this line has diminished and will continue to do so. Moreover, the NW connection at CP Canal (Argo) will no longer be needed and CN has stated that once all the EJE improvements are in place, they will cease exercising trackage rights on IHB/BOCT.

On the other hand, given UP's new intermodal terminal south of Joliet, there may be an increase in UP traffic on this route. But despite all this, it still looks to me that CN's resistance is based more on protecting their own turf rather than pointing up real problems that need to be addressed. The situation looks similar to the North Central route. Because of the EJE restucturing, CN freight traffic on this route has diminished to just two or three trains a day south of Leithton. Yet CN continues to stall on adding more North Central commuter runs.

Other than some signal & rail upgrades, the bigest limitation to capacity is growth is Bridgeport, Corwith & Argo grade crossings. They need to be grade separated. 21st St. needs some serious revision too. But, it's like freeway expansion. Every improvement just causes the bottlenecks to appear somewhere else.

RailNet802, out

I guess it is official that the Chicago-St. Louis trains will use the Rock Island Metra line between Chicago and Joliet rather than current ex-GMO route. Also will use the 10th Street corridor(NS)through Springfield rather than present UP.

http://fox2now.com/2012/12/19/high-speed-rail-service-soon-coming-to-st-louis/

Mexrail



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/12 12:11 by mexrail.