Passenger Trains > Amtrak's Broadway Limited

I used to ride the Broadway Limited a lot. I started in 1969 back when I believe it was Penn Central's train. Why did they cut the train? One day I tried to make a telephone reservation and they said the train was gone.

Why did who cut the train, Penn Central or Amtrak ?

The train was cut during the Clinton years when Tom Downs was Amtrak's president. I believe it was 1994. The Pioneer and Desert Wind were also notable losses.
I remember working the Broadway Ltd. and was very sad to see it go.

In a television interview on the day the last Broadway Limited arrived in Philadelphia and New York,
Amtrak president Tom "Downsize" Downs was interviewed by a Philadelphia TV station. The only explanation
offered was when he stammered, "We save millions of dollars by not operating it this way."

The original plan was to discontinue the Cardinal. Then Amtrak changed its mind and killed the
Broadway Limited instead. Its heavy Mail and Express traffic went to the Capitol Limited, which then
had great difficulties getting out of Chicago on time.

-GP (last First Class passenger in the history of the Broadway Limited)

GenePoon Wrote:
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> In a television interview on the day the last
> Broadway Limited arrived in Philadelphia and New
> York,
> Amtrak president Tom "Downsize" Downs was
> interviewed by a Philadelphia TV station. The
> only explanation
> offered was when he stammered, "We save millions
> of dollars by not operating it this way."

But would the Lakeshore Limited be the train that it is today if the Broadway Limited was still running?

Not Penn Central, PRR. At least in 1966-67, when I rode it a lot.

GenePoon Wrote:

>
> -GP (last First Class passenger in the history of
> the Broadway Limited)

The Amtrak version? How did you acquire this "honor"? Did they have the lounge car with
the piano up until the end? There were some good times in that car.

My recollection of the era is that the Lake Shore was almost the same size then as now.

Under Amtrak after the move off the former PRR to the former B&O, the Broadway Limited
ran with a light load between Philadelphia and New York. It was, for all purposes
including Mail and Express, a Philadelphia train. The Capitol Limited, which by
then had become Amtrak's East-Midwest flagship train, was supposed to handle
the passengers off the Broadway by means of a connection at Pittsburgh to the truncated
New York-Pittsburgh train dubbed the Three Rivers. We all know how well that went over.
Meanwhile the effect of the Mail and Express business on the Capitol's timekeeping caused it
to become unreliable, primarily due to initial terminal delays, augmented by inability to
make time over the railroad with the heavy train. It took only about a year for Amtrak to
admit its mistakes: through coaches were implemented, then replaced by a coach train with
service to/from Chicago restored, and finally with sleeping cars, once Heritage 9-6 sleepers
came out of an austere rehabilitation (from 10-6 cars; Roomette 9 was replaced by a shower).

There were several reasons for picking on the Broadway, none of them especially compelling, and some political:

1) Conrail had decided to concentrate resources on the "Big X", NY to Chicago via the former NYC, and PHL to Pittsburgh and St. Louis. The former PRR "Panhandle" main was scheduled for a downgrade between Chicago and Galion, OH, and has since been leased to short line Pittsburgh, Ft. Wayne, and Chicago.
2) The Cardinal is West Virgina's only train at present, and the WV congressional delegation has had a powerful voice in Amtrak route choices. So, while the Cardinal is a miserable little train on a tri-weekly schedule, it still runs.
3) With the "Capitol" running via Pittsburgh, Amtrak figured the PIT-CHI market was adequately served.

Amtrak later added a mostly mail and express train called the "Three Rivers", which used the upgraded and double-tracked CSX route west of Pittsburgh rather than the PRR. It lasted only until David Gunn started backing off on Weenie Warrington's mail and express initiative.

jbaker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GenePoon Wrote:
>
> >
> > -GP (last First Class passenger in the history
> of
> > the Broadway Limited)
>
> The Amtrak version? How did you acquire this
> "honor"? Did they have the lounge car with
> the piano up until the end? There were some good
> times in that car.


It was a happenstance that I was the last First Class passenger to ride the
Broadway Limited. At Newark the only other remaining passenger in the Sleeping
Car detrained. The attendant came to me and said, "Well, you're the only one
left..."

The Slumbercoach had passengers in it; but it wasn't First Class.

I have family in the Philadelphia area; three of them rode a local to Harrisburg and
boarded there (don't ask how I was able to get them tickets, when the Broadway did not
permit boardings at Harrisburg). I could have just as easily gotten off with them at
30th St. Philadelphia, but no...I had to ride to the end.

There was no piano in the Lounge car, but it was full during most of the daylight
hours of the last trip, with passengers remembering good times from the past. There
was even a bit of a celebration that morning, as the last westbound was scheduled to
arrive in Chicago. For the next several hours, there would be only one Broadway Limited
operating, and after that, none.

I met many people who have remained friends since that September day in 1995. The gentleman
who detrained from the Sleeping Car in Newark has been the best of them. Occasionally, out
of the blue, he will blurt out, "WHY DIDN'T I RIDE THE LAST BROADWAY ALL THE WAY TO NEW YORK?"

I seem to remember that large portions of the former PRR main line between Chicago and Pittsburgh was severely downgraded, if not abandoned completely in spots.

Did this have anything to do with it?

Joe

Conrail did indeed downgrade the former PRR mainline west of CRESTLINE, Ohio, which precipitated the Broadway's rerouting via the ex-B&O west of the Pittsburgh area in 1990. Although Conrail proposed abandoning certain sections, that never occurred, and the former PRR main remains intact almost all the way to Chicago, albeit as an unsignalled, single-track railroad under the aegis of CFW&E (I believe there's a bit missing just east of Pine Junction in the Gary area, but that would be all that is completely gone).

The Pennsy Panhandle was a completely different piece of railroad. It ran through Columbus and was never a part of the Broadway's route. Some sections remain, such as the Ohio Central between Mingo Junction and Columbus, while others are gone.

And yes, the last run of the rerouted Broadway Limited was in September, 1995.

< Did this have anything to do with it? >

Indirectly.
Youngstown and Akron could never hold a candle to what was lost at Lima and Fort Wayne
Garrett and Fostoria were non-entities. Nappanee was on par with Warsaw or Valpo.

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Conrail did indeed downgrade the former PRR
> mainline west of CRESTLINE, Ohio, which
> precipitated the Broadway's rerouting via the
> ex-B&O west of the Pittsburgh area in 1990.

Nope. Conrail abandoned use of the PRR through Gary, IN circa 1990, forcing the reroute via the B&O or NYC for the Capitol Limited and Broadway Limited. The Broadway got the B&O because that gave more midwest cities a route to NYC, which is Amtrak's biggest origin and destination.

> Although Conrail proposed abandoning certain
> sections, that never occurred, and the former PRR
> main remains intact almost all the way to Chicago,
> albeit as an unsignalled, single-track railroad
> under the aegis of CFW&E (I believe there's a bit
> missing just east of Pine Junction in the Gary
> area, but that would be all that is completely
> gone).

The downgrading of the signal system was an even bigger issue than the chunk of track in Gary. Conrail proposed a level of utility of 30 mph (FRA Class II) vs. the 79 mph it had been maintained to, and suggest Amtrak pick up the difference in track maintenance and all costs for signals for its two trains per day each way.

> The Pennsy Panhandle was a completely different
> piece of railroad. It ran through Columbus and was
> never a part of the Broadway's route. Some
> sections remain, such as the Ohio Central between
> Mingo Junction and Columbus, while others are
> gone.

The Panhandle was the route of the late, lamented National Limited from NY and DC to St. Louis and Kansas City.

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GenePoon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In a television interview on the day the last
> > Broadway Limited arrived in Philadelphia and
> New
> > York,
> > Amtrak president Tom "Downsize" Downs was
> > interviewed by a Philadelphia TV station. The
> > only explanation
> > offered was when he stammered, "We save
> millions
> > of dollars by not operating it this way."
>
> But would the Lakeshore Limited be the train that
> it is today if the Broadway Limited was still
> running?

Yes it would, as they served completely different markets except for New York City. The Lake Shore primarily took riders from stations between NYC and Buffalo as well as from Boston to Springfield to stations between Toledo and Chicago with connections to Detroit. The Broadway primarily took riders from stations between NYC and Pittsburgh to stations between Fort Wayne and Chicago. The only overlap market was New York City-Chicago.

Amtrak was able to fill both trains regularly from 1975 to 1995 and annual ridership was not greatly different than today. Combined Broadway/Capitol ridership was around 350,000 per year pre-split. Lake Shore ridership at the same mid-1980's period was 370,000. In 1991, ridership was 215,000 on the Broadway, 170,000 on the Capitol, and 360,000 on the Lake Shore. Ridership in 2012 was around 230,000 on the Capitol and just shy of 400,000 on the Lake Shore. There is no reason to think that the Broadway would not be pulling 275,000 or so riders per year today if still running and given a standard eastern consist (2 Viewliners, 4 coaches).

When it re-added the Three Rivers, it regularly filled that too. Both trains out of NYC were typically a baggage car, 2 10-6 sleepers, a slumbercoach, a diner, a lounge, and 3 to 5 coaches (i.e. a larger consist than is run today on any east coast train except the Silver Meteor). The Lake Shore would grow in Alabany with the addition of the Boston cars, typically a 10-6 sleeper, a lounge and 2 to 3 coaches. The Broadway grew in Harrisburg or Pittsburgh with the addition of a similar number of DC cars until the 1986 (I think) split of the trains.

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> toledopatch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Conrail did indeed downgrade the former PRR
> > mainline west of CRESTLINE, Ohio, which
> > precipitated the Broadway's rerouting via the
> > ex-B&O west of the Pittsburgh area in 1990.
>
> Nope. Conrail abandoned use of the PRR through
> Gary, IN circa 1990, forcing the reroute via the
> B&O or NYC for the Capitol Limited and Broadway
> Limited. The Broadway got the B&O because that
> gave more midwest cities a route to NYC, which is
> Amtrak's biggest origin and destination.

"Nope"? Seems to me we said pretty much the same things, we just sequenced them differently. Abandonment of the PRR in Gary is cited in my subsequent paragraph, albeit with a bit of uncertainty since I couldn't remember exactly what was taken out. And then you cite the signal downgrade as the biggest factor in the re-routing, and I take no issue with that. If a few miles of track in Gary had been the only issue, Amtrak could easily have found a way to keep the train running.

> > Although Conrail proposed abandoning certain
> > sections, that never occurred, and the former
> PRR
> > main remains intact almost all the way to
> Chicago,
> > albeit as an unsignalled, single-track railroad
> > under the aegis of CFW&E (I believe there's a
> bit
> > missing just east of Pine Junction in the Gary
> > area, but that would be all that is completely
> > gone).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/13 15:41 by toledopatch.

When the Bway was running, the NY section of the Lake Shore was weaker than today, and had just 3 Am-2 or 4 heritage for coaches.
40/41 was marked back at least as 1993. The coaches were a random assortment of anything laying around Chicago or SSY. In April of 1993, I saw 1 Horizon, 1 Am-2, 1 Horizon, 1 Heritage. They also started playing around with the diner, taking it off and putting it back.

Mercer said take it off, Downs couldn't think for himself, and he took it off west of PGH, while they sent MHC's to Chicago. Then he saw the injustice of that, and sent 2 coaches on as well. When he realized it did not work in reality as well as on paper, he sent it back out on the B&O.

At least he had the sense to partially rescind a mistake.

Gunn kills it altogether, kills the PGH OBS crew base to make it harder ti put back, a Congressionaly-mandated (not Amtrak intitiated) PIP report said to put thru cars back, and 2 years later have their thumbs implanted in their a$$es (and all other PIP's).

Now Harrisburg - Pittsburgh may go altogether. Amtrak is 75% to blame - first running the route into the ground, then playing chicken with Penn-DOT.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When the Bway was running, the NY section of the
> Lake Shore was weaker than today, and had just 3
> Am-2 or 4 heritage for coaches.
> 40/41 was marked back at least as 1993. The
> coaches were a random assortment of anything
> laying around Chicago or SSY. In April of 1993, I
> saw 1 Horizon, 1 Am-2, 1 Horizon, 1 Heritage. They
> also started playing around with the diner, taking
> it off and putting it back.

Broadway Consists
1978 - 4 coaches, lounge, twin unit diner, 6 br/lounge, sleeper, slumbercoach
1981 - 3 coaches, lounge, diner, 2 sleepers, slumbercoach
1986 - 4 Amfleet II coaches, lounge, diner, 2 sleepers, slumbercoach

Lake Shore NY Consists
1978 - 3 coaches, lounge, diner, sleeper, slumbercoach
1981 - 3 coaches, lounge, diner, 2 sleepers, slumbercoach
1986 - 4 Amfleet II coaches, lounge, diner, 1 sleeper, slumbercoach

Really not a whole lot of differences. The Lake Shore tended to have 1 less sleeper, which may simply have been a function of arrival and departure times.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now Harrisburg - Pittsburgh may go altogether.
> Amtrak is 75% to blame - first running the route
> into the ground, then playing chicken with
> Penn-DOT.


How is Amtrak running the Pennsylvanian into the ground?

I have ridden the Pennsylvanian many times beginning in 1980, its first year of service. For several trips in 2010, 2011 and 2012, I don't think I was ever late arriving in Pittsburgh or New York or points in between. This is supported by 2012 data showing its on-time performance was 91%. On several occasions, the Pennsylvanian has been sold out or close to sold out.

The lounge car offerings are not great, but the selection has improved in recent years.

The Pittsburgh station and on-board staff are friendly.

In terms of existing facilities, rolling stock and operations, my only beef is the westbound Pennsylvanian arrives in Pittsburgh later than I would like. However, maybe this schedule is convenient for more people.

So please explain, how has Amtrak run the Pennsylvanian into the ground?

RuleG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So please explain, how has Amtrak run the
> Pennsylvanian into the ground?

It's called PRIIA Section 209 which as discussed earlier in this forum is partly Amtrak's doing. Basically Amtrak has already washed its hands off of the Pennsylvanian. It is not going to be their problem starting October. If the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania wants it run it, it will continue. Otherwise it will be gone. Amtrak in effect has already run it out of its stable. It has also indirectly lost control of whether it can put the PIP recommendation for the Capitol Ltd regarding through cars to New York into effect.