Passenger Trains > Ed Ellis comments on Pullman

Ed Ellis, president of Iowa Pacific Holdings, posted the following about Pullman Service to another
discussion group, in response to a question, "How is business?"


> The simple answer is “business is good” but everybody says that,
> right? Our goal for 2013 was to handle 1,000 passengers and I think
> we will be close but a little short of that. In 2014, we hope to
> double that number, and we already have over 1,000 bookings. We are
> satisfied with that. The reaction to the service has been very
> positive. CBS Sunday Morning is doing a piece on Pullman in the next
> few weeks. There have been great articles in the NY Times, Chicago
> Tribune and others, and all of this is good for business. We have a
> number of groups, both domestic and European, with multiple bookings
> for 2014.
>
> We are working on two additional cars that should show up sometime in
> 2014. North Coast is a former NP dome sleeper, 4 roomettes, four
> single rooms and four bedrooms, plus 24 table seats in the dome.
> Coffee Creek is a former Milwaukee Road skytop sleeper which will
> have six bedrooms, a galley and a skytop lounge.

This type of unique equipment begs to have a more scenic route than Chicago to New Orleans...which is boring with a high portion at night. I'd love to see these cars on the back of the Zephyr or Chief.

To travel Pullman on the Zephyr, go to http://uncommonjourneys.com/destination/usa-west/glories-west/

Pullman provides the cars, and the same great food and Pullman service as on the Chicago-New Orleans route. At least four of these will operate in 2014.

andersonb109 Wrote:
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> This type of unique equipment begs to have a more
> scenic route than Chicago to New Orleans...which
> is boring with a high portion at night. I'd love
> to see these cars on the back of the Zephyr or
> Chief.

---

andersonb109 Wrote:
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> This type of unique equipment begs to have a more
> scenic route than Chicago to New Orleans...which
> is boring with a high portion at night. I'd love
> to see these cars on the back of the Zephyr or
> Chief.


Or on the rear of the Cardinal in the New River Gorge??? Off in DC, of course.

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This type of unique equipment begs to have a more
> scenic route than Chicago to New Orleans...which
> is boring with a high portion at night. I'd love
> to see these cars on the back of the Zephyr or
> Chief.


I agree, but I think with a limited number of cars currently available - it would be GREAT to have domes and such on the Cardinal. This route is constantly sold out in sleepers by Amtrak, which means it can attract passengers willing to pay a bit more. The only thing is, just operate the Pullman cars between Washington DC and Chicago. It could even sell tickets to a "day crowd" as well. This train already carries a large share of private cars any way.

Another void in the system is running through cars from Chicago to NYC via Pittsburgh and Philly. Since Amtrak doesn't have the equipment to make this viable, Iowa Pacific could. As an alternate, to avoid Sunnyside Yard, the Pullman cars could be taken off at Philly and stored in the coach yard. Philly is often overlooked as a terminus. A dome around Horseshoe Curve would be very marketable. But there are certainly enough NEC trains that could forward passengers to NYC, Boston, or Washington DC. Philly has the unique local to be in the middle - sort of. Amtrak was considering operating Superliners to Philly via a restored Broadway Limited at one time.....but alterations would have had to be made at 30th Street Station. Thus not sure how far a dome could get East. But even if it was single level and had a good observation car in tow, this would be great!

This is wonderful news.

And, I'm especially impressed that private investors have confidence in the idea sufficient to put their own money into the deal.

andersonb109 Wrote:
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> This type of unique equipment begs to have a more
> scenic route than Chicago to New Orleans...which
> is boring with a high portion at night. I'd love
> to see these cars on the back of the Zephyr or
> Chief.

The problem with the Zephyr and Chief is the long distance makes for an expensive trip and will price out many of the customers. Part of the experience is sleeping aboard a train.

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

There are any number of destinations that would work, but one has to consider that the average wealthy guest on deals like this is quite savy, and is more interested in the food and treatment on board than in scenery along the way, or even in the destination. Most would have been to New Orleans before, even perhaps multiple times, but this would likely be the first time by train. The City of New Orleans route in general is under-promoted, under-appreciated, and, dare I say it, under-priced by Amtrak. What makes it difficult and expensive for private operators, though, is the additional operating cost of the second locomotive. New Orleans is also one of the best destinations for special events such as Mardi Gras, Jazz Fest, and various sports get-togethers. In the past there used to be as many as six private business car trains in the Crescent City area all at the same time for superbowls. Now there are significant capacity constraints at NOUPT, and even if you can book a parking track, you must supply your own gensets for headend power.

Trains which already have two or more locomotives are less of a problem. Pullman was going to run overnight on the Capitol Limited as well, or I believe that was the original plan. There may have been a test trip or two. Private car trips are quite popular between Washington DC and Chicago, by way of either the Cardinal or Capitol routes. There particularly are regular seasonal overnight trips by several vendors, most particular in April and October. Catching the sun in the gorge is difficult on the regular Cardinal, unless it is eastbound and on time. A schedule change a few years ago didn't help. Once again, the Cardinal typically only has one engine, so tacking more than one PV on at a time triggers the extra engine costs.

Premium services with private cars on the Silver Star and Silver Meteor would seem like a natural, as they are on the Coast Starlight out on the left coast. Perhaps Amtrak does not encourage it to/from Florida because it might be considered some competition with the Auto-Train?

"Border Security" kills off any chances of running privately on the Adirondack, and has damn near killed off that train completely.

Nevertheless, no matter how impractical, here are my rankings, or should I say wish lists, for regular private car premium services:

1. Adirondack
2. Cardinal
3. City of New Orleans
4. Capitol Limited
5. Lakeshore Limited
6. Silver Star, Silver Meteor, or perhaps Palmetto
7. Coast Starlight (a little long for most people, but perhaps divide it into two trips with an overnight en-route?)
8. Sunset Limited(three separate segments really, too long for one trip, but my favorite portion is San Antonio to Tucson
9. Southwest Chief (simply because this is the fastest route east for non-flying movie star types)
10. California Zephyr (Denver and west)

webmaster Wrote:
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> The problem with the Zephyr and Chief is the long
> distance makes for an expensive trip and will
> price out many of the customers.

When you look at some of the very high prices being charged for this type of service these days, I guess it illustrates that a trip on the western streamliners and domeliners in the 1950s and 60s was an exceptional value for the dollar, and people just didn't realize it.

In today's dollars, and if you could wave a magic wand and have the original CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR or NORTH COAST LIMITED operating once again, what do you suppose the fare would be for a deluxe bedroom for the full distance of their respective routes?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/13 22:33 by CA_Sou_MA_Agent.

Just FWIW, I have the tickets from our 1949 California Zephyr trip, July 31. Our family of 3 had a bedroom from Oakland to Chicago. It was $100 apiece. I don't know if this included the meals but $300 was a lot of bucks in 1949!! We were far from rich but my father was a railfan and this was a dream trip for him-------and me too!!
C.

Carol Voss
Bakersfield, CA

Many people in the target demographic for the Pullman passengers may already have their Global Entry / Pre-Check certification. TSA and Border Control people tend to be favorably disposed, especially when they already have the traveler info beforehand.

But Adirondack is usually a single engine train for each of its segments.

This is good news. I do wonder, though, if their market wouldn't be even better if Pullman went ahead with their earlier plans to serve the Chicago to NY or DC route. It could be in addition to or instead of New Orleans, especially in the hot months when trotting around the French Quarter is no fun. After all, those are huge population centers and many there are rail transit oriented from their daily commutes. Likewise, Washington to Florida would seem to be a natural with all the snow birds.

According to the BLS, $300 in 1949 is $2937.84 today....

CarolVoss Wrote:
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> Just FWIW, I have the tickets from our 1949
> California Zephyr trip, July 31. Our family of 3
> had a bedroom from Oakland to Chicago. It was
> $100 apiece. I don't know if this included the
> meals but $300 was a lot of bucks in 1949!! We
> were far from rich but my father was a railfan and
> this was a dream trip for him-------and me too!!
> C.

I think it was recent Trains magazine article that said the NY-Chicago market has been ruled out.

A key problem with the Pullman concept is that they run on Amtrak.

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> I think it was recent Trains magazine article that
> said the NY-Chicago market has been ruled out.
==================================================

Not according to this:

> In Transit - New York Times
> A Guide to Intelligent Travel
> December 23, 2013, 11:37 am
>
> Re-creating the Golden Age of Rail Travel
>
> By TANYA MOHN

> Pullman Rail Journeys, a Chicago-based independent operator of
> first-class passenger service on Amtrak and private trains and
> charters, plans to introduce overnight train service between Chicago
> and New York in mid-2014.
>
> The new route, scheduled to operate on Amtrak, is part of a larger
> mission to bring back the golden age of train travel with artfully
> restored vintage cars and attention to detail, Angela Arias, vice
> president of marketing for Premier Rail Collection, which owns
> Pullman Rail Journeys and six other passenger railroads, said in a
> telephone interview.
>
> The idea is to replicate what travelers would have experienced on
> sleeping cars built and operated by the Pullman Palace Car Company
> from the mid-1800s until the 1950s, Ms. Arias added. “Perfect
> service, exemplary food and authentic rail cars” will be the
> hallmarks, she said...

Full story:

Re-creating the Golden Age of Rail Travel

Note: Premier Rail Collection railroads and companies are owned and operated by Iowa Pacific Holdings, LLC



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/13 15:03 by GenePoon.

back in the 1930s, railroads ran special and seasonal trains to places where rich folks summered or wintered.

Bretton Woods, NH, Bar Harbor ME, Mackinaw Island MI, White Sulphur Springs WV, Sun Valley ID, Palm Beach FL, Newport RI, Cape Breton Island, NS and so on.

Now days, the equivalent of those folks have their own jet aircraft at the ready and can zoom off to Aspen, St Kitts, Dubrovnik, etc

eee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to the BLS, $300 in 1949 is $2937.84
> today....
>
> CarolVoss Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just FWIW, I have the tickets from our 1949
> > California Zephyr trip, July 31. Our family of
> 3
> > had a bedroom from Oakland to Chicago. It was
> > $100 apiece. I don't know if this included the
> > meals but $300 was a lot of bucks in 1949!! We
> > were far from rich but my father was a railfan
> and
> > this was a dream trip for him-------and me
> too!!
> > C.

In the 1960s I would go to the Santa Fe depot in Norman, Okla., get the tariff books, and sit down and plan a trip using as many free optional routings as possible. My only constraints were that I had to go through Batesville, Miss. and Pomona, Cal., where my grandparents lived, and my ticket could not cost over $100. But I could basically go anywhere west of the Mississippi if I planned it carefully. It was all coach, but I could often include a few $5.80 lower berths in my $100.

If you ride Pullman Service you will find that what goes on inside is what sells far more than the scenery outside.

eee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To travel Pullman on the Zephyr, go to
> http://uncommonjourneys.com/destination/usa-west/g
> lories-west/
>
> Pullman provides the cars, and the same great food
> and Pullman service as on the Chicago-New Orleans
> route. At least four of these will operate in
> 2014.
>

If I read this itinerary correctly, there are a total of two train segments: (1) Chicago to Grand Junction, CO (attached to the CZ?) and (2) East Glacier Park, MT to Chicago (attached to the EB).

I wonder how the equipment will be routed from GJT to EGP? And whether the rooms in the Pullmans will be available for sale to the public for those "deadhead" segments?